Manuel Noriega & American adventurism

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  • miguel

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    I was surprised nobody mentioned the passing of "Central American strongman" Manuel Noriega, who passed late last month.

    The US intervention against him, after collaborating with him for many years, always stuck in my mind, even as a young man.

    Here's an interesting take from the Mieses institute on how this was one of the first dominoes to fall around the time the Soviet empire gave up the ghost.

    https://mises.org/blog/how-1989s-invasion-panama-set-stage-25-years-endless-war
     

    KellyinAvon

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    I have to quote Moms Mabley on this one, "They say you ain't supposed to say nothing about the dead unless it's good. He's dead, GOOD!"
     

    miguel

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    I always remember him "whipping it out" during a speech one time. Cracked me up. Much better than Khrushchev's shoe!

    akamaihd.net_.jpg
     

    IndyDave1776

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    My take on it is that the media had largely succeeded at painting Bush Sr. as a sissy and that was something he could do to shake the image, even if it was in most regards like beating up a kindergartner.
     

    miguel

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    In retrospect, I think the guy got railroaded.

    No doubt he got screwed! Helped the CIA run drugs, then we invade and bust him for drug trafficking! That's why I'm a little...sympathetic isn't the word I'm looking for, but I can't think of another. He was probably no more corrupt than the corrupt people he was dealing with.

    And at least he wielded a machete! Should have gone out fighting. I hate when guys back down at the end...

    [video=youtube;7XbpYjGxoxs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XbpYjGxoxs[/video]
     

    Wolfhound

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    As someone who was down there before, during and after the invasion I believe the US did the right thing. The only mistake was not actively supporting the coup attempt against Noriega in 1989. The coup seemed to catch US intelligence off guard.

    When we went in as part of the invasion it was like liberating Paris in the 40's. People were so happy to be rid of Noriega. I guess you had to be there to fully understand.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    As someone who was down there before, during and after the invasion I believe the US did the right thing. The only mistake was not actively supporting the coup attempt against Noriega in 1989. The coup seemed to catch US intelligence off guard.

    When we went in as part of the invasion it was like liberating Paris in the 40's. People were so happy to be rid of Noriega. I guess you had to be there to fully understand.

    No doubt, it was "good thing," and made a lot of Panamanians happy. However, I think this is more an issue of national sovereignty; in which I think the US violated. Panama is free to conduct business as they see fit within their nation. If the dictator of the nation wished to allow free commerce of drugs, that's kinda Panama's business. It is our business to discourage the trade and entry of those drugs into the United States, but the use of the military to do so.... after being aware of the practice for years... I think is beyond the pale. One of the other thing that's always bothered me about Noreiga is, that once we got him, they locked the door and through away the key, and we never heard a peep from him again. I've always felt that he was given a forum to talk, we would've leaned some really unflattering things about how our nation did business in South and Central America.
     

    Wolfhound

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    I am not sure drugs were the main issue. They were an issue but I think there were much larger factors at play. First there is the Panama Canal which is of strategic importance. It was built and at the time ran by the US. Carter had already signed a treaty to hand that and the handful of US bases back to Panama. It would have been a disaster to give the keys to all of that to Noriega and his regime. The other issue was the pressure being exerted on US bases and workers in Panama. Intimidation and threats were the norm. You have to remember that even though this was almost 20 years later the memories of Vietnam still hung over the US. I think Noriega believed he could pressure the US to pack up and leave by making things difficult for the US to maintain those bases and personnel. We would routinely have to run armed convoys between the bases as it was normal practice for the PDF to set up road blocks and harass anyone traveling. It was not a good situation.
     
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    miguel

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    I am not sure drugs were the main issue. They were an issue but I think there were much larger factors at play. First there is the Panama Canal which is of strategic importance. It was built and at the time ran by the US. Carter had already signed a treaty to hand that and the handful of US bases back to Panama. It would have been a disaster to give the keys to all of that to Noriega and his regime. The other issue was the pressure being exerted on US bases and workers in Panama. Intimidation and threats were the norm. You have to remember that even though this was almost 20 years later the memories of Vietnam still hung over the US. I think Noriega believed he could pressure the US to pack up and leave by making things difficult for the US to maintain those bases and personnel. We would routinely have to run armed convoys between the bases as it was normal practice for the PDF to set up road blocks and harass anyone traveling. It was not a good situation.

    Great posts, thanks for sharing your experiences.

    I remember being young and watching it on TV.
     

    Wolfhound

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    Great posts, thanks for sharing your experiences.

    I remember being young and watching it on TV.

    It is good to talk about these types of experiences. It wasn't my intent to hijack the thread.

    I honestly think the USA did Noriega a huge favor by flying him out of there and keeping him as long as they did. The Panamanians would have given him Mussolini type justice. He sat in a US and then French prison long enough to let tempers calm down in Panama. Then he was eventually handed over to them. I am not sure if that was real "justice" but it would have not sat well with many to see him immediately strung up on national television by the Panamanians he had tortured and betrayed.

    All of the US properties have been handed over to Panama. The Panamanians are doing an excellent job of running the canal and Panama is one of the most USA friendly countries in Central America. I would like to return and visit someday.
     

    HoughMade

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    I am not sure drugs were the main issue. They were an issue but I think there were much larger factors at play. First there is the Panama Canal which is of strategic importance. It was built and at the time ran by the US. Carter had already signed a treaty to hand that and the handful of US bases back to Panama. It would have been a disaster to give the keys to all of that to Noriega and his regime. The other issue was the pressure being exerted on US bases and workers in Panama. Intimidation and threats were the norm. You have to remember that even though this was almost 20 years later the memories of Vietnam still hung over the US. I think Noriega believed he could pressure the US to pack up and leave by making things difficult for the US to maintain those bases and personnel. We would routinely have to run armed convoys between the bases as it was normal practice for the PDF to set up road blocks and harass anyone traveling. It was not a good situation.

    Doesn't sound like a man you want controlling access of the Atlantic fleets to the Pacific, and vice versa.
     

    ghuns

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    At the time, I felt like this was reason enough to open a can of whoop arse...

    U.S. Officer, Wife Beaten in Panama : Military alert: Bush reviews options for action in wake of fatal shooting. Cheney accuses Noriega of fostering violence.

    What the headline curiously leaves out is that the officer and his wife witnessed the murder of another American officer by the PDF. Isn't the murder a bigger story than detainment and beatings?:dunno:

    My much more cynical, 40 something self knows this was likely a convenient excuse to do something Bush I and Cheney really wanted to do.
     

    snapping turtle

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    The U.S. Invasion of Panama 1989: The Injustice of "Operation Just Cause"

    the USA was paying him just 200k a year to be a thug. The cartels could afford much more. The USA was bucking for a fight and ran thru a roadblock to a PDF base to start the fight. 10 days before the canal was to be turned over the panama we took it back over and installed new leaders who were just a corrupted as Noriega. Operation JUst cause was more like bush to it just cause he wanted to.

    More citizens died in the invasion than Noriega most likely killed during his rule (maybe not) . The whole thing was about the canal and the Iran contra deals. Also brought the crack cocaine surge into the mix in the USA.

    Overall not not one of the finer moments in US policy.

    But heck what what do I know. It seems he did keep his mouth shut about what he knew was going on in the Latin America at the time he ruled.
     

    Wolfhound

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    The U.S. Invasion of Panama 1989: The Injustice of "Operation Just Cause"

    the USA was paying him just 200k a year to be a thug. The cartels could afford much more. The USA was bucking for a fight and ran thru a roadblock to a PDF base to start the fight. 10 days before the canal was to be turned over the panama we took it back over and installed new leaders who were just a corrupted as Noriega. Operation JUst cause was more like bush to it just cause he wanted to.

    More citizens died in the invasion than Noriega most likely killed during his rule (maybe not) . The whole thing was about the canal and the Iran contra deals. Also brought the crack cocaine surge into the mix in the USA.

    Overall not not one of the finer moments in US policy.

    But heck what what do I know. It seems he did keep his mouth shut about what he knew was going on in the Latin America at the time he ruled.

    You are entitled to your opinion. As I have gotten older I have questioned some things which is normal. There are a couple of issues I have with your post. The treaty to turn over the canal scheduled the turn over for December 31st 1999. The turn over did happen on that date. Along with the US bases being given back to Panama. It is hard to imagine Russia or China giving something so valuable away just because it was the right thing to do.

    There was not a "puppet" government installed after the invasion. There had been free elections held and then nullified by Noriega when he lost. So the US simply installed the freely elected officials who had been chosen by the Panamanian people. I can verify that we began handing back control of the country almost immediately and we had a clear exit strategy.
     
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