Cultural appropriation, Confederate Flag, and evolving symbology

[T.Lex]

So, a couple somewhat random things occurred to me in the last 24 hours.

First, I do think that the significant majority of people who keep Confederate flags are not racists. They enjoy the in-your-face rebel reputation that it portrays. As a symbol, the flag has been (for a long time) co-opted by the skinheads and white power types. Seems like the "normal" people should do more to denounce the extremists and try to take back the symbol that has been appropriated by them. Putting it in those terms would help the center-lefts connect to the situation.

Second, as someone who's grown up listening to rap/hip-hop, I've witnessed the evolution of the "N" word. Building on my first point, above, I think there's been an evolution of the Confederate flag. It isn't about secession (to the vast majority) - it can't be; they lost that argument. It is about heritage and a sense of resistance to authority. That's pretty common in American society anyway. So, my point is that if certain elements of society can say that the "N" word isn't what it used to be, those people ought to be equally open to the notion that the stars and bars isn't what it used to be, too.

Third, still wondering how 1917 Russia is in any way related to modern American society.

Oh, and cookies. Anyone have Thin Mints anymore?

 

[Birds Away]

If that flag or those statues are divisive then good riddance. There are people in powerful positions that are making a lot of hay out of all this divisiveness, hatred and violence. They are the people who are pushing this stuff. We need to stop falling into the trap. Those people who don't look like you want the same things out of life that you do. They are, not surprisingly, just like you. They want peace and prosperity for their families. They want work that makes them feel fulfilled and to minimize the hassles of life. We are all pretty much the same. The masks we wear keep us apart but that's all they really are. I've had a lot of good friends who looked nothing like me.

 

[KLB]

So, a couple somewhat random things occurred to me in the last 24 hours.

First, I do think that the significant majority of people who keep Confederate flags are not racists. They enjoy the in-your-face rebel reputation that it portrays. As a symbol, the flag has been (for a long time) co-opted by the skinheads and white power types. Seems like the "normal" people should do more to denounce the extremists and try to take back the symbol that has been appropriated by them. Putting it in those terms would help the center-lefts connect to the situation.

Second, as someone who's grown up listening to rap/hip-hop, I've witnessed the evolution of the "N" word. Building on my first point, above, I think there's been an evolution of the Confederate flag. It isn't about secession (to the vast majority) - it can't be; they lost that argument. It is about heritage and a sense of resistance to authority. That's pretty common in American society anyway. So, my point is that if certain elements of society can say that the "N" word isn't what it used to be, those people ought to be equally open to the notion that the stars and bars isn't what it used to be, too.

Third, still wondering how 1917 Russia is in any way related to modern American society.

Oh, and cookies. Anyone have Thin Mints anymore?

The "N" word is only not what it used to be based upon who says it.

Keebler Grasshopper Cookies

 

[T.Lex]

If that flag or those statues are divisive then good riddance. There are people in powerful positions that are making a lot of hay out of all this divisiveness, hatred and violence. They are the people who are pushing this stuff. We need to stop falling into the trap. Those people who don't look like you want the same things out of life that you do. They are, not surprisingly, just like you. They want peace and prosperity for their families. They want work that makes them feel fulfilled and to minimize the hassles of life. We are all pretty much the same. The masks we wear keep us apart but that's all they really are. I've had a lot of good friends who looked nothing like me.

Preaching to the choir on those points. But, not everyone is like that. We must find ways of connecting people who do not necessarily want to be connected (partly because certain influencers profit off of the divisiveness).

Some people are bridges, though. Some people can find ways to bring people together at some level. Sure, it doesn't always work, but we need more people to see themselves as bridges.

The "N" word is only not what it used to be based upon who says it.

IME, that's not completely true. I mean, some whites have a certain credibility within their peer racially mixed peer group and can use it in the new-urban way. Now, when they are out of that peer group, with people that don't view them with the same credibility, there are issues.

But, isn't that the same as the Confederate flag? In some contexts, there's no white supremecist content at all.

Keebler Grasshopper Cookies

If that is what I think it is, then I'm in trouble.

 

[KLB]

Preaching to the choir on those points. But, not everyone is like that. We must find ways of connecting people who do not necessarily want to be connected (partly because certain influencers profit off of the divisiveness).

Some people are bridges, though. Some people can find ways to bring people together at some level. Sure, it doesn't always work, but we need more people to see themselves as bridges.



IME, that's not completely true. I mean, some whites have a certain credibility within their peer racially mixed peer group and can use it in the new-urban way. Now, when they are out of that peer group, with people that don't view them with the same credibility, there are issues.

But, isn't that the same as the Confederate flag? In some contexts, there's no white supremecist content at all.

I agree that a lot, if not most people that display that flag are probably not racists. I wonder if the majority of people in this country even viewed it in that context.

If that is what I think it is, then I'm in trouble.

It is. Get some

 

[HoughMade]

In the first generation after WWII, some (many) outlaw bikers adopted the swastika as a F-U to polite society even though they were mostly not Nazis at all.

So what you're saying is, if we wait long enough....

 

[T.Lex]

In the first generation after WWII, some (many) outlaw bikers adopted the swastika as a F-U to polite society even though they were mostly not Nazis at all.

So what you're saying is, if we wait long enough....

Outlaw bikers will adopt the snowflake as a symbol.

Yes.

That's exactly what I'm syllogistically saying.

 

[jamil]

So, a couple somewhat random things occurred to me in the last 24 hours.

First, I do think that the significant majority of people who keep Confederate flags are not racists. They enjoy the in-your-face rebel reputation that it portrays. As a symbol, the flag has been (for a long time) co-opted by the skinheads and white power types. Seems like the "normal" people should do more to denounce the extremists and try to take back the symbol that has been appropriated by them. Putting it in those terms would help the center-lefts connect to the situation.

Second, as someone who's grown up listening to rap/hip-hop, I've witnessed the evolution of the "N" word. Building on my first point, above, I think there's been an evolution of the Confederate flag. It isn't about secession (to the vast majority) - it can't be; they lost that argument. It is about heritage and a sense of resistance to authority. That's pretty common in American society anyway. So, my point is that if certain elements of society can say that the "N" word isn't what it used to be, those people ought to be equally open to the notion that the stars and bars isn't what it used to be, too.

Third, still wondering how 1917 Russia is in any way related to modern American society.

Oh, and cookies. Anyone have Thin Mints anymore?

All I have to say about that is that mint and chocolate together is the alchemy of Satan. Those who consume it are deceived. It is equally an abomination to chocolate and an abomination to mint. It is in no way comparable to the sweet amalgamation of heaven that is Peanut butter and Chocolate.

 

[jamil]

Third, still wondering how 1917 Russia is in any way related to modern American society.

Oh. And I'll take a stab at the 1917 Russian Wheelhouse, which you still haven't told me its street value.

Today's American revolution is similar to the Rusian revolution in that it marks a transitionary period from not-marxism, to marxism.

 

[Birds Away]

All I have to say about that is that mint and chocolate together is the alchemy of Satan. Those who consume it are deceived. It is equally an abomination to chocolate and an abomination to mint. It is in no way comparable to the sweet amalgamation of heaven that is Peanut butter and Chocolate.

I have to weigh in and say that thin mints are the exception to that rule. I think the cookie somehow acts as a buffer from the evil. However, mint chocolate chip is indeed an abomination.

 

[T.Lex]

All I have to say about that is that mint and chocolate together is the alchemy of Satan. Those who consume it are deceived. It is equally an abomination to chocolate and an abomination to mint. It is in no way comparable to the sweet amalgamation of heaven that is Peanut butter and Chocolate.

I believe that, like people, diversity of chocolate is a good thing. I am equal opportunity consumer of chocolate-mint and chocolate-peanut (since there are may sub-varieties). However, having experienced chocolate-bacon, I can tell you that it is like the false prophet of Armageddon. You think it is the culmination of all that is good in the world, yet it is vile.

Oh. And I'll take a stab at the 1917 Russian Wheelhouse, which you still haven't told me its street value.

Today's American revolution is similar to the Rusian revolution in that it marks a transitionary period from not-marxism, to marxism.

Interesting.

I don't disagree with that assessment for the US. However, that is really NOT what happened in Russia. Marx himself didn't think an agrarian country like Russia at the time would be appropriate to reflect marxism.

Keep in mind, Marx was a fortune-teller. He predicted what would happen as the industrial revolution picked up steam (pardon the pun). While the US is arguably following a trajectory consistent with Marx's predictions, it need not be an intentional action (or set of actions).

ETA:
I can neither confirm nor deny I have a 1917 Russian Wheelhouse in my gun safe that my wife may or may not know about. I'm waiting for 50 quality posts to put it in the classifieds.

 

[indiucky]

Second, as someone who's grown up listening to rap/hip-hop, I've witnessed the evolution of the "N" word. Building on my first point, above, I think there's been an evolution of the Confederate flag. It isn't about secession (to the vast majority) - it can't be; they lost that argument. It is about heritage and a sense of resistance to authority. That's pretty common in American society anyway. So, my point is that if certain elements of society can say that the "N" word isn't what it used to be, those people ought to be equally open to the notion that the stars and bars isn't what it used to be, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiuesTpIPVQ

NSFW or anyone....

 

[bmbutch]

I love all cookies!

 

[Chewie]

All I have to say about that is that mint and chocolate together is the alchemy of Satan. Those who consume it are deceived. It is equally an abomination to chocolate and an abomination to mint. It is in no way comparable to the sweet amalgamation of heaven that is Peanut butter and Chocolate.

Blasphemer! Mixing Chocolate and Peanut butter is the culmination of all evil in the world today! Thin mints are tolerable in the absence of true homemade Molassass cookies. Mmmm Molassess, Crisco, Flour, Ginger, Coffee and other spices all mixed together and cooked to a cake like consistancy. Now that is the true creation of the gods!

 

[Birds Away]

Oh. And I'll take a stab at the 1917 Russian Wheelhouse, which you still haven't told me its street value.

Today's American revolution is similar to the Rusian revolution in that it marks a transitionary period from not-marxism, to marxism.

Man, I miss the good old days of not-Marxism.

 

[femurphy77]

Words, symbols, statues, etc only have power over you if you let them. You know, the whole "sticks and stones" thing! Many moons ago while amongst a large group of blacks (that's how long ago this was) one of them whom I didn't know called me a wise cracker because we were telling jokes, goofing off and generally having a good time. Some time later that same day one of my friends asked me why I didn't bust the dude for insulting me like that and that I need to do something about it or lose "cred". My response was that by ignoring his comment whether intended as an insult or not was my way of saying that his words meant nothing to me. A swastika means nothing to me, I don't get upset when the Irish are stereotyped as drunks, the stars and bars represent standing up in defiance when you think you've been wronged, stop signs mean stop and rules are meant to be followed and I stand for the National Anthem and get dust in my eyes every time I hear taps. Get over it!

People attacking other people over words is ridiculous. Don't give anybody that power over you thru the simple use of a word or symbol.

 

[miguel]

 

[Trigger Time]

I'd say your first post about the flag is right and people use it as a symbol of fighting oppression and THE MAN.
As far as fighting against hate groups like the kkk. I fight them just like I fight black lives matter or the Muslim brotherhood or the black panthers or antifa. I speak out against their bull **** agenda and ALWAYS have way before this b.s. started. I don't and won't go to rallys which often evolve into violence and have no real point. Same as I don't attend 2nd amendment rallys or anti moms demand action rallys. It's pointless. I instead choose to do something inportamt and stay connected to my elected officials and voice my opinions to them and hold them accountible. Yeah it can,be like talking to a brick wall.
Whoever thjnjs the white supremacy groups are a huge threat are.smoking something. They are a.shell of what they used to be and the reason is because white Americans speak out and denounce them and do not join them. The majority. It's not because minorities fight them.

 

[jamil]

I believe that, like people, diversity of chocolate is a good thing. I am equal opportunity consumer of chocolate-mint and chocolate-peanut (since there are may sub-varieties). However, having experienced chocolate-bacon, I can tell you that it is like the false prophet of Armageddon. You think it is the culmination of all that is good in the world, yet it is vile.


Interesting.

I don't disagree with that assessment for the US. However, that is really NOT what happened in Russia. Marx himself didn't think an agrarian country like Russia at the time would be appropriate to reflect marxism.

Keep in mind, Marx was a fortune-teller. He predicted what would happen as the industrial revolution picked up steam (pardon the pun). While the US is arguably following a trajectory consistent with Marx's predictions, it need not be an intentional action (or set of actions).

ETA:
I can neither confirm nor deny I have a 1917 Russian Wheelhouse in my gun safe that my wife may or may not know about. I'm waiting for 50 quality posts to put it in the classifieds.

1. You're simply wrong about chocolate and mint. The mint flavor ruins the chocolate flavor rather than complementing it. Mint is good. Chocolate is good. Mixing the two is evil.

2. Like most fortune tellers Marx wasn't a good one. Poverty has decreased in the West as capitalism mixed with mostly compatible moral values of the West have evolved to raise the standards of living. The industrial revolution has never produced the promised organic movement towards public ownership of the means of production that Marx promised. Marxists have artificially caused the revolutions that brought about literally every communist regime.

 

[KLB]

All I have to say about that is that mint and chocolate together is the alchemy of Satan. Those who consume it are deceived. It is equally an abomination to chocolate and an abomination to mint. It is in no way comparable to the sweet amalgamation of heaven that is Peanut butter and Chocolate.

Usually I agree with you, but this is just

Mint and chocolate are awesome together, except for mint chocolate chip ice cream.