Do you Really Think It's a gun Problem? - Psychiatric Drugs and Violence

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  • HenryWallace

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    About 12 years ago now my brother took his own life, and I believe without a doubt in my mind it was due to the SSRI's and other meds he was on. After yesterday's shooting, I think it's time to start looking into the all too common links between violence and Prescribed Medications.
    So this is an ongoing story by my most trusted news source, Michael Rivero.

    thinkitsguns.jpg

    Harris was put on psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Northern Illinois University had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Virginia Tech had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Stockton had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Navy Yard had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Ft. Hood had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Isla Vista had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Paducah had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at UCC had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Aurora had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Tucson had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Tallahassee had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Kauhajoki had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Fresno had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Jokela had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Red Lion had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at Ikeda had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    The killer at El Cajon had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.
    Nikolas de Jesus Crux had been prescribed psychiatric drugs.

    Not everyone will have these types of reactions, but a close look at the bottles warnings, and information packets do note that there can be very serious side-affects. Thank you for looking.

    The rest of the story in this link. MASS VIOLENCE LINKED TO PRESCRIPTION PSYCHIATRIC MEDICATIONS - A RESOURCE PAGE | WHAT REALLY HAPPENED
     

    T.Lex

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    Wow.

    A link between psychotic people being prescribed drugs who then go on to act psychotically.

    Brilliant.
     

    BugI02

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    Virtually all of your listed mass murderers used guns in their crimes, but as responsible gun owners we rightfully point out that the vast majority of gun owners are not violent and do not kill anyone. It is not the fault of guns or gun ownership

    Do you not see the parallel with arguing that all the mass murderers on your list were taking psychiatric drugs (you don't differentiate between SSRIs and any other types of psychiatric drugs (such as lithium) by the way). There are millions of people concurrently taking these same drugs with your mass murderers; and they may not even buy guns let alone kill people. So can one rationally argue that the drugs are to blame, or is it that unstable people are ... unstable

    I think you are confusing cause and effect. "Correlation does not imply causation"
     

    eldirector

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    I agree that this is more a mental health issue than anything else. I don't have enough information to believe the drugs cause the behavior, or the behavior dictates the drugs, but either way - we should focus some effort on the cause of the behavior.
     

    HenryWallace

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    I do appreciate the comments above. Point well taken.
    I still have to ask, of the mass shooters and mass killers that we know the identity of, which of them were not on prescribed psychiatric medications? Or how about this? Who has mass killed innocents in cold blood and not been on anti depressants, SSRI's, or anti psychotics?

    By the way Lithium is in itself a base element on the periodic table. I'm talking about lab created drugs, granted I'm sure they chemically adjust the lithium.

    Why is Everything that I see out here online related to mass murder (And I do have to assume that Big Pharma wouldn't like the negative press) seemingly linked to these medications?

    Just speaking on my personal experience, my brother and I were best friends growing up and his life changed intensely the month that he started on his treatments for Bi-Polarity, ADHD, and Manic Depression. He was just 14 at the time. He killed himself 10 years later while taking 46 pills 13 different meds each and every day. He had a wife, a great job, a future, and a close knit family.
     

    T.Lex

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    One area that I will concede is drug interactions. Taken in isolation, I suspect the drugs are more beneficial. As you note, though, more often than not, that is not the case. Even accepting that we don't know beforehand what the side effects might be in any one person, multiple drugs with multiple side effects greatly increase that risk of the unknown.

    However, I am compelled to re-iterate that oversimplifying it to the drugs has a corollary danger. If we make large-scale decisions, such as legislation, the unintended consequences extend to people who are actually being helped. Societally, that is a difficult cost-benefit analysis.

    Psychotic people are FAR more likely to commit crimes. Regardless whether they are medicated.

    In Indiana, I am familiar with the case of Vincent Prowell. He killed 2 people in Evansville. Later, he was diagnosed with a schizophrenia-type disorder. He was not medicated at the time because he was not diagnosed.

    That is simply an anecdotal refutation of your anecdotal claim.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mitchell
    In all likelihood, it's probably a more complex problem than what is be portrayed here. We'd likely have to drill down in to it some more because there are probably also societal and cultural issues that are contributing to this too. It's not a gun problem no more than it is a rental van problem when people mow down pedestrians or a fertilizer problem or a pressure cooker problem when people make bombs out of those things.
     

    HenryWallace

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    One area that I will concede is drug interactions. Taken in isolation, I suspect the drugs are more beneficial. As you note, though, more often than not, that is not the case. Even accepting that we don't know beforehand what the side effects might be in any one person, multiple drugs with multiple side effects greatly increase that risk of the unknown.

    However, I am compelled to re-iterate that oversimplifying it to the drugs has a corollary danger. If we make large-scale decisions, such as legislation, the unintended consequences extend to people who are actually being helped. Societally, that is a difficult cost-benefit analysis.

    Psychotic people are FAR more likely to commit crimes. Regardless whether they are medicated.

    In Indiana, I am familiar with the case of Vincent Prowell. He killed 2 people in Evansville. Later, he was diagnosed with a schizophrenia-type disorder. He was not medicated at the time because he was not diagnosed.

    Understandably so, thank you for your perspective, and that is a great point to make about the multi-drug interactions.
    About Vincent Prowell, Is it reasonable to say that someone can be diagnosed as with schizophrenia after they take a life, or being institutionalized?
     

    HenryWallace

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    Some 90 percent of school shootings over more than a decade have been linked to a widely prescribed type of antidepressant called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors or SSRIs, according to British psychiatrist Dr. David Healy, a founder of RxISK.org, an independent website for researching and reporting on prescription drugs.
    http://investmen****chblog.com/psyc...-because-it-messes-with-big-pharmas-cash-cow/
    One more thing that I have to bring out is that the gun is mystified by many children and adult's that lack of understanding. one cause I would have to say is that people aren't as educated about firearms than what they used to be. This year alone, there have already been 18 school shootings. Many of them were unintentional.
    Post News: 18 school shootings in US in 2018
     

    eldirector

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    http://investmen****chblog.com/psyc...-because-it-messes-with-big-pharmas-cash-cow/
    One more thing that I have to bring out is that the gun is mystified by many children and adult's that lack of understanding. one cause I would have to say is that people aren't as educated about firearms than what they used to be. This year alone, there have already been 18 school shootings. Many of them were unintentional.
    Post News: 18 school shootings in US in 2018

    There has not been 18 school shootings this year. Unless you define "school" and "shooting" very, very loosely, and want to fudge the numbers quite a bit:

    http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/school-shootings-year-article-1.3821162

    I count maybe 8 or 9 actual "shootings". Yes, that is WAY too high, but it also not 18.
     

    T.Lex

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    Understandably so, thank you for your perspective, and that is a great point to make about the multi-drug interactions.
    About Vincent Prowell, Is it reasonable to say that someone can be diagnosed as with schizophrenia after they take a life, or being institutionalized?

    The experts seem to think so.

    In that case, after conviction, a great deal of testimony came out about Prowell not being "right." That was sufficient for at least some part of the psychiatric community to diagnose him, retroactively.
     

    2ADMNLOVER

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    Wow.

    A link between psychotic people being prescribed drugs who then go on to act psychotically.

    Brilliant.
    Funny thing is , you don't have to be a psychotic person to be prescribed drugs that completely nullify a persons inhibitions from acting psychotically .

    There's a concept called ' off label use ' .
    They give you a drug for one thing but oh bye the way , you might turn homicidal .
     

    HenryWallace

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    There has not been 18 school shootings this year. Unless you define "school" and "shooting" very, very loosely, and want to fudge the numbers quite a bit:

    These are the school shootings so far this year - NY Daily News

    I count maybe 8 or 9 actual "shootings". Yes, that is WAY too high, but it also not 18.

    According to the independent Everytown for Gun Safety group, eight of the 18 school shooting incidents so far this year, which covers primary schools to universities, involved guns being discharged with no one injured.

    Two were suicide attempts and the rest attacks on others.
    As much as I dislike the group Everytown for Gun Safety, it looks like the accumulated 10 actual shootings of people in schools. The point that I'd take from this is that we need more education on firearms... Goodness, we just need better education overall, but I believe this would be a good place to start.
     

    amboy49

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    As much as I dislike the group Everytown for Gun Safety, it looks like the accumulated 10 actual shootings of people in schools. The point that I'd take from this is that we need more education on firearms... Goodness, we just need better education overall, but I believe this would be a good place to start.


    What type of “education on firearms “ would you propose ? How, if I lay a gun down and walk away from it, no one ever seems to get shot by it acting on its own ? How about if I own a whole bunch of guns (theoretically, of course) and I don’t go bat sh*t crazy and go out and shoot up the town, the gun(s) didn’t instigate an abnormal reaction in me ? How about . . . . . . . well, I guess I could go on for quite awhile but, hopefully, you get the idea.

    Hopefully your statement was meant to be color coded purple.
     
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    dugsagun

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    Well if someone is on the border between sane and crazy, i guess the wrong prescribed pills could push them over the edge. I remember growing up in my late teens and my ma would babysit her friends absolute demon little girl on a weekend . Then one time she comes over after having been put on ritalin, and wow complete change of mental state. i'll never forget that. I dont think its the only factor in these shootings, but i believe it is definitely a contributing one.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    Are the psychiatric drugs only available in the United States? Who are we kidding? We're the only first world nation in the world that seems to have this problem. My inclination is that these instances would, like most killings, be dismissed as a crazy person acting out. There are plenty of instances, worldwide, where crazy people "acting out," so that wouldn't be uncommon. The difference IS the guns. A crazy person with an AR IS going to kill more people, typically, than a crazy person with a knife, or even most handgun. We should, as gun owners, admit and accept this. But we don't make laws based on what might happen. We don't or shouldn't hinder people's abilities at self-defense. If I'm a sane person, and I believe I need an AR-15 to protect me and mine, there should be no prohibition based on other people's fear of what could happen. We don't punish pre-crime.
     

    HenryWallace

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    What type of “education on firearms “ would you propose ? How, if I lay a gun down and walk away from it, no one ever seems to get shot by it acting on its own ? How about if I own a whole bunch of guns (theoretically, of course) and I don’t go bat sh*t crazy and go out and shoot up the town, the gun(s) didn’t instigate an abnormal reaction in me ? How about . . . . . . . well, I guess I could go on for quite awhile but, hopefully, you get the idea.

    Hopefully your statement was meant to be color coded purple.

    My point is this... I recall children with .22s coming into school for boy scouts or our shooting club. It was common to see firearms inside of a school. Or at Walmart or Kmart out on the shelves, not behind glass. People were walking around with firearms inside major department stores, a lot. Even rifles. No one thought anything out of the ordinary I didn't even understand the concept of a school shooting at that time.
    Nowadays, it's a taboo almost. I believe that being raised to understand firearm safety and having proper respect (which I hope almost all of our INGO group here do) you steal away that desire to PLAY with a gun, or be irresponsible with a gun. I'd like to say we should start there.
    I couldn't blame a piece of metal, not my point, but I can blame a misunderstanding about what that piece of metal can do.
     

    2ADMNLOVER

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    When a drunk driver smokes a family , we blame the driver .

    When nutjobs use hatchets , poisons , etc , we blame the individual .

    Obviously these incidents are very complex with no singular answer .

    However a lowest common denominator seems to be prescribed drugs yet the only folks that seem to have a problem with those are our guberment .
     

    HenryWallace

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    Are the psychiatric drugs only available in the United States? Who are we kidding? We're the only first world nation in the world that seems to have this problem. My inclination is that these instances would, like most killings, be dismissed as a crazy person acting out. There are plenty of instances, worldwide, where crazy people "acting out," so that wouldn't be uncommon. The difference IS the guns. A crazy person with an AR IS going to kill more people, typically, than a crazy person with a knife, or even most handgun. We should, as gun owners, admit and accept this. But we don't make laws based on what might happen. We don't or shouldn't hinder people's abilities at self-defense. If I'm a sane person, and I believe I need an AR-15 to protect me and mine, there should be no prohibition based on other people's fear of what could happen. We don't punish pre-crime.
    I agree. It's not the tools (even being that a gun is much more effective than a blade) its the person pulling the trigger. My rights exist all the way up until your rights. Where the underlying issue is, I believe, is these psychotropic drugs tend to blur the lines between reality and fantasy.
    When around 25% of our country, and 33% of our police force (don't get me wrong I respect wholly the police that I know and associate with, this comes from them too) is dosed, we've lost a bit of moral aptitude everywhere.
    My son asked me once about what it meant to be on those drugs. I told him that it's like that feeling you get when you help an older person with their groceries, or raking the elderly persons leaves without asking for anything in return. That compassion you feel, you don't have to do that stuff anymore if you take a pill to feel it.
     

    rob63

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    My daughter was diagnosed with depression and anxiety issues around 10 years ago, at age 15. She had reached a point where she kept herself locked in her room and would only communicate by passing notes under the door. Yes, she was suicidal. When she began taking Prozac our doctor told me that one of the problems with such drugs is that a severely depressed person is usually very lethargic and sometimes the drug will lift them out of the lethargy just enough that they can do something tragic that they were previously thinking about but unable to do.

    She is now doing very well, but it has been a 10 year process of trial and error with various medications, combinations of meds, and dosages. The doctors prescribing them have no idea how any individual is going to react to them, it truly is a process of trial and error. What's worse, a person can react very well to a drug at first, but then go downhill once their body adjusts to it. It is a constant battle of the person recognizing the symptoms of a change in the reaction to the medications and then seeking help before they go too far down.

    Another factor is age, due to puberty. I have heard a great number of stories from different people about someone that improved significantly around age 25, particularly women.

    There was no way I would have trusted my daughter with a gun during the past 10 years. I don't think I would trust her with one now.

    I know this won't sit well with the 2nd amendment absolutist, and I doubt the medical community would go along with it anyway. However, my experience makes me think it would be a good idea to ban gun purchases to people taking these medications. A database could be created that is checked whenever a background check occurs. It wouldn't end all of the problems, and there are privacy issues, etc. However, it would help.

    I think we are inevitably going to end up losing all of our gun rights if these shootings keep happening. My experience with the younger generation convinces me that they see Europe as the model for the future, and that is where we are heading if we can't find an answer.

    Anyway, flame away, just my .02 cents.
     
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