Why our children are killing each other...

[daddyusmaximus]

This guy is right. I read his books "On Killing" and "On Combat" on recommendation of a VA dr. after my last deployment.

[video=youtube;OBNbeoJMoiI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBNbeoJMoiI[/video]



[video=youtube;WmnLccBE2d8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmnLccBE2d8[/video]

 

[Jludo]

I think it contributes to someone already mentally ill but I don't buy the main argument. Millions and millions consume violent media and never commit a violent crime.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Grossman is often questionable and many of his theories don't hold up to inspection. Primarily because he approaches the whole question backward. Men don't have to be trained or conditioned to kill, they have to be trained and conditioned not to. I read his books early on and they seemed plausible and well researched. I've since learned that there's a significant body of historians and researchers who disagree with much of his body of work, and I also noticed that much of it didn't ring true with respect to violence I was seeing and investigating.

I'd read: https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Man-Helix-Books/dp/0738203157 and then make up my mind how serious to take Grossman's notions.

He's likable, charismatic, and some of his information is good...but he's basically the Bill Nye of the study of violence.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I think it contributes to someone already mentally ill but I don't buy the main argument. Millions and millions consume violent media and never commit a violent crime.

Yeah. Absolutely fascinating isn't it? It would have to follow if this "conditioning" is to blame, violence would be spread in at least some manner consistent with media consumption. X-boxes are pretty evenly distributed. Violence isn't.

 

[daddyusmaximus]

In today's society... violence is pretty damn evenly distributed. Parental guidance, is not... That would be a mitigating factor. The combination of the conditioning, without the restraint of proper values being instilled at home would be a bad combo. The virtual extinction of the American family unit has hurt us a great deal as well.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

Grossman is often questionable and many of his theories don't hold up to inspection. Primarily because he approaches the whole question backward. Men don't have to be trained or conditioned to kill, they have to be trained and conditioned not to. I read his books early on and they seemed plausible and well researched. I've since learned that there's a significant body of historians and researchers who disagree with much of his body of work, and I also noticed that much of it didn't ring true with respect to violence I was seeing and investigating.

I'd read: https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Man-Helix-Books/dp/0738203157 and then make up my mind how serious to take Grossman's notions.

He's likable, charismatic, and some of his information is good...but he's basically the Bill Nye of the study of violence.

I listened to all of Pt 1 and most of Pt 2, and I frankly turned it off because I found something a little irritating with his manner of speech (although that might be exacerbated by me listening while I edit technical documents).

As far as whether or not men have to be trained to kill, I would think that (for the military) it's more a matter of training men to kill as part of a learned procedure as opposed to an expression of hatred or self-preservation. Which is to say, teaching men to kill in response to training instead of emotion or instinct. Men may not have to be trained to kill, but I would think that most men have to be trained to kill that way. ( I have no military or police training, so I don't know if I'm off base or not with that.)

In today's society... violence is pretty damn evenly distributed. Parental guidance, is not... That would be a mitigating factor. The combination of the conditioning, without the restraint of proper values being instilled at home would be a bad combo. The virtual extinction of the American family unit has hurt us a great deal as well.

One teacher, after the Florida school shooting talked about what she saw as an alarming lack of empathy in her students, compared to when she started teaching. I read that, and wondered if that might point to the deeper root of the problem, that allows other factors to have more influence.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

As far as whether or not men have to be trained to kill, I would think that (for the military) it's more a matter of training men to kill as part of a learned procedure as opposed to an expression of hatred or self-preservation. Which is to say, teaching men to kill in response to training instead of emotion or instinct.

We're wired to kill for resources, which is part of self and group preservation. What we have to be trained to do is show restraint and discipline.

Chimps wage war against other tribes. They aren't trained, and they aren't playing video games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War

The first outbreak of violence occurred on January 7, 1974,[SUP][4][/SUP] when a party of six adult Kasakela males attacked and killed "Gobi", a young Kahama male, who had been feeding in a tree.[SUP][1][/SUP] This was the first time that any of the chimpanzees had been seen to deliberately kill a fellow chimp.[SUP][4][/SUP]Over the next four years, all six of the adult male members of the Kahama were killed by the Kasakela males.[SUP][5][/SUP] Of the females from Kahama, one was killed, two went missing, and three were beaten and kidnapped by the Kasakela males.[SUP][5][/SUP] The Kasakela then succeeded in taking over the Kahama's former territory.[SUP][5][/SUP]
These territorial gains were not permanent, however; with the Kahama gone, the Kasakela's territory now butted up directly against the territory of another chimpanzee community, called the Kalande.[SUP][6][/SUP] Cowed by the superior strength and numbers of the Kalande, as well as a few violent skirmishes along their border, the Kasakela quickly gave up much of their new territory.[SUP][6][/SUP]

We (and they) are well suited to be group hunters, which happens to also make us well suited to be soldiers.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Men don't have to be trained or conditioned to kill, they have to be trained and conditioned not to.

Just a snip. I've said things like this before on this board and others. If you want to examine the true nature of man, then have kids. Study toddlers/little kids / elementary age students. You'll soon learn (or re-learn) that you don't have to teach children to lie or to take things without asking. Or to "hit" when one isn't getting one's way. It's innate.

Children must be taught honesty. Children must be taught to not take things. Or not to hit.

GOOD parenting can teach most all of the above behaviors out of children. It should happen that way, anyhow.

As far as empathy goes as another poster mentioned? I personally think that's a casualty of a society where we're all so "plugged in" that we don't know how to act and interact with people any more. If all your interactions are letters on a screen - the it's quite easy to not have any empathy. Even when you're in a room full of people, or a school full of people - it's still so easy to be alone in your own little digital world. I noticed this happening to others and myself way back in 1996 when I first went to college - and "The Internet" for all was still gaining traction.

And I know that I can't really do anything about anyone else other than my 2 kids. My daughter is 7 and has already asked to have a phone. Sorry, kiddo. She'll spend HOURS on her LeapPad or my Kindle or our PC if we let her. I don't know what the future is going to hold as far as personal devices go or if trends towards uplugging will be more and more common (hopefully) - but we're going to do our best to raise well-adjusted kids who hopefully will grow in to well-adjusted adults.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

We're wired to kill for resources, which is part of self and group preservation. What we have to be trained to do is show restraint and discipline.

Chimps wage war against other tribes. They aren't trained, and they aren't playing video games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War

We (and they) are well suited to be group hunters, which happens to also make us well suited to be soldiers.

You're right, I should have included resources. I still remember reading the early articles about the Gombe chimps in Nat. Geo when I was a kid. To this day, I remember the murderous eyes of a young adult female chimp that had killed and eaten another female's infant (was her name Pom?). I've always been really interested in behavioral biology, and in social animals in particular (Unrelated thought: Social insects are mis-named, since their colonies are families and not societies).

I've always thought that both cooperative hunting AND territory defense(and/or seizure) might have been the main areas where complex speech would give a distinct evolutionary advantage. And, I think that many of the so-called defense mechanisms that are exhibited by people, and which are almost always attributed to having evolved in response to prehistoric predators, are actually a response to defending or protecting against harm from other humans. I'd guess that prehistoric humans were more likely to be killed by other humans than by predators.

 

[thej27]

Read this book if you want to know how long humans have been killing each other.
https://www.amazon.com/War-Before-C...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

 

[Tombs]

It all starts with the family, and the values said family holds.

If those 2 things aren't satisfied, and the individual is hanging onto sanity by a limb, then of course things like this push them over the edge.

But hey if you want to tell me how it's good for a 5-13 year old to witness acts of extreme violence and bloodshed on a daily basis, I'm all ears for that argument.
I don't see how there's something to gain from ingraining this sort of thing into a child's psyche.

 

[rob63]

I once heard a Vietnam vet say that the Army didn't teach anybody how to kill, it was just finishing school.

 

[actaeon277]

Just a snip. I've said things like this before on this board and others. If you want to examine the true nature of man, then have kids. Study toddlers/little kids / elementary age students. You'll soon learn (or re-learn) that you don't have to teach children to lie or to take things without asking. Or to "hit" when one isn't getting one's way. It's innate.

Children must be taught honesty. Children must be taught to not take things. Or not to hit.

GOOD parenting can teach most all of the above behaviors out of children. It should happen that way, anyhow.

As far as empathy goes as another poster mentioned? I personally think that's a casualty of a society where we're all so "plugged in" that we don't know how to act and interact with people any more. If all your interactions are letters on a screen - the it's quite easy to not have any empathy. Even when you're in a room full of people, or a school full of people - it's still so easy to be alone in your own little digital world. I noticed this happening to others and myself way back in 1996 when I first went to college - and "The Internet" for all was still gaining traction.

And I know that I can't really do anything about anyone else other than my 2 kids. My daughter is 7 and has already asked to have a phone. Sorry, kiddo. She'll spend HOURS on her LeapPad or my Kindle or our PC if we let her. I don't know what the future is going to hold as far as personal devices go or if trends towards uplugging will be more and more common (hopefully) - but we're going to do our best to raise well-adjusted kids who hopefully will grow in to well-adjusted adults.

There's two trains of thought.
One) That people are born innocent, and society ruins them.
Two) That people are born animals, and society must train them to be civilized.

Personally, I think people that believe number One were never kids, or have been around them.
So, I agree with you.

 

[actaeon277]

I once heard a Vietnam vet say that the Army didn't teach anybody how to kill, it was just finishing school.

I disagree slightly.
the Army didn't teach anybody [STRIKE]how[/STRIKE] to kill, it was just finishing school.

The military can approach it with an institutional memory, and with statistics/science.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Read this book if you want to know how long humans have been killing each other.
https://www.amazon.com/War-Before-C...preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=srch

Well, for the Christian-minded, we didn't have 4 people on the planet before someone got off'd.

Edit: in technical sense, I guess I shouldve said 5

 

[Nevermore]

It all starts with the family, and the values said family holds.

If those 2 things aren't satisfied, and the individual is hanging onto sanity by a limb, then of course things like this push them over the edge.

But hey if you want to tell me how it's good for a 5-13 year old to witness acts of extreme violence and bloodshed on a daily basis, I'm all ears for that argument.
I don't see how there's something to gain from ingraining this sort of thing into a child's psyche.

Children seemed to be alright witnessing animal slaughter and butchering for a few thousand years, in all fairness. Not exactly the same as sticking my in-game AK-47 in someone's face and blowing them away, but hardly some bloodless existence where violence was only for the soldier or the executioner.

Well, for the Christian-minded, we didn't have 4 people on the planet before someone got off'd.

Quite true, and not for resources, postion, power, or any actual gain at all. Cain murdered Able purely out of jealousy.

 

[JettaKnight]

Well, for the Christian-minded, we didn't have 4 people on the planet before someone got off'd.

Edit: in technical sense, I guess I shouldve said 5

I'm pretty sure Cain spent countless hours playing CoD, whereas Abel played SimCity.

 

[indiucky]

I'm pretty sure Cain spent countless hours playing CoD, whereas Abel played SimCity.

Lillith was listening to Indigo Girls records.....That's why she split from Adam.....

 

[indiucky]

Well, for the Christian-minded, we didn't have 4 people on the planet before someone got off'd.

Edit: in technical sense, I guess I shouldve said 5

In the US we have found (I believe) close to fourteen human skeletons over 9000 years old....Of those, nine have wounds consistent with violence.....

 

[thej27]

In the US we have found (I believe) close to fourteen human skeletons over 9000 years old....Of those, nine have wounds consistent with violence.....

Here is another great book on Native American warfare in North America before European contact.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0816530386/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1