Democratic socialism, explained by a democratic socialist

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  • Leadeye

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    Maybe they should just do their experiments in New York.

    I remember when NYC went under in the 70s.

    Reminds me of that funny picture I've seen here with the fork and the electrical receptacle.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mitchell
    whiskey tango foxtrot are people actually falling for this?

    One possible theory was referenced in the article: the high cost of medical care. It's probably safe to assume that no matter where one stands on single payer health care or free market or status quo, we can all agree that the costs are outrageous. The stories out there where people are saddled with large medical debts are real. We've all had to argue with insurance companies to cover some procedure or prescription, etc. The whole thing is a problem. And people want something done about it. Unfortunately, the only solutions we see tried involve things like Obama-Care or other regulations imposed by government. It's a tangled ball of twine without any real indication well needed reformation is on the way. The only solution that seems to have traction and it does sound welcoming (on the surface) is single-payer or socialized medicine. Honestly...it's a fight I'm afraid we're losing.
     

    spec4

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    I still have trouble differentiating socialism from communism. Bigger question is does this trash get far enough in our country to where we need a call to arms to defend against it.
     

    jamil

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    I still have trouble differentiating socialism from communism. Bigger question is does this trash get far enough in our country to where we need a call to arms to defend against it.
    Communism is just one socialist form of government.

    People aren’t getting to hear both sides of it fairly. For the past several decades we’ve been fed a steady diet of profit is evil from Hollywood and other media.
     

    Route 45

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    I still have trouble differentiating socialism from communism. Bigger question is does this trash get far enough in our country to where we need a call to arms to defend against it.

    I feel that we will someday have single-payer healthcare, or something similar, and no, we will not take up arms over it.

    Healthcare costs are obscene. Something's gotta give. Maybe we will wind up with some basic level of care for everyone, with premium care available on the free market and a government managed insurance program for catastrophic care. Maybe some kind of hybrid market based/socialized system. Just guessing, really.
     

    rhino

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    whiskey tango foxtrot are people actually falling for this?

    Non-productive people will always go for a system where they derive unearned benefits from productive people.

    People who embrace the idea of socialism usually believe they'll be one of the chosen who will be more equal than the others. Almost all of them are wrong.
     

    rob63

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    One possible theory was referenced in the article: the high cost of medical care. It's probably safe to assume that no matter where one stands on single payer health care or free market or status quo, we can all agree that the costs are outrageous. The stories out there where people are saddled with large medical debts are real. We've all had to argue with insurance companies to cover some procedure or prescription, etc. The whole thing is a problem. And people want something done about it. Unfortunately, the only solutions we see tried involve things like Obama-Care or other regulations imposed by government. It's a tangled ball of twine without any real indication well needed reformation is on the way. The only solution that seems to have traction and it does sound welcoming (on the surface) is single-payer or socialized medicine. Honestly...it's a fight I'm afraid we're losing.

    Well said! If we want to put a stop to democratic socialism, we need to fix the healthcare system. If the Republicans won't do something about it, then these guys are the alternative we're going to end up with.
     
    Last edited:

    DoggyDaddy

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    Non-productive people will always go for a system where they derive unearned benefits from productive people.

    People who embrace the idea of socialism usually believe they'll be one of the chosen who will be more equal than the others. Almost all of them are wrong.

    ^^^This^^^

    From the article: "But until then, we’ll be in the trenches fighting for what Ocasio-Cortez called the “minimum elements necessary to lead a dignified American life”".

    We already have those minimum elements. They're called "jobs". Real jobs... not the kind that your degree in "(insert worthless subject matter here) studies" qualifies you for. And who creates those jobs? Capitalists and entrepreneurs.
     

    jamil

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    I feel that we will someday have single-payer healthcare, or something similar, and no, we will not take up arms over it.

    Healthcare costs are obscene. Something's gotta give. Maybe we will wind up with some basic level of care for everyone, with premium care available on the free market and a government managed insurance program for catastrophic care. Maybe some kind of hybrid market based/socialized system. Just guessing, really.
    It may be impossible to have a true market based system now. The areas of healthcare mostly untouched by government and insurance, truly market driven, are much cheeper. Cosmetic surgery, for example, when adjusted for inflation is cheaper now than 30 years ago. Right now the general market for healthcare excludes patients from decisions. We can’t shop around for cost. One really can’t argue that our free-market healthcare system doesn’t work, because that’s not the system we have.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Mitchell
    Well said! If we want to put a stop to democratic socialism, we need to fix the healthcare system. If the Republicans won't do something about it, then these guys are the alternative we're going to end up with.

    For practically every law and regulation there's a constituency that supports it. It's just easier to throw money at it than listening to the screams and wails as sacred cows are killed. The republicans have no stomach for it until they're in the minority.
     

    jamil

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    Well said! If we want to put a stop to democratic socialism, we need to fix the healthcare system. If the Republicans won't do something about it, then these guys are the alternative we're going to end up with.

    You guys are not wrong. It needs fixed, but that’s like telling grown ass spoiled brats they have to be responsible. De-cronying the healthcare system is hard. It’s so entangled with big insurance, big healthcare, big pharma, and big government, I’m not sure it can be fixed. Republicans like to talk about things like allowing insurance companies to go across state lines, and yes, that would be a step in the right direction. But a 6 inch step towards a thousand mile destination is a step in the right direction, but not a very impactful step.

    Here’s what I think would help. The consumer must be put back into the market as an equal transactor. Right now, we pay premiums to insurance companies to pay for our healthcare. There’s very little market pressure to keep costs down. Of course providers naturally want to sell their services for as much as they can get. Insurance companies would like to pay out as little as possible. But because of the crony relationship with government and providers, and the power that gives them over consumers, insurance companies aren’t as interested in price shopping as we are. They can just raise our premiums. And if we want healthcare, we have to pay it. Our system is legalized price-fixing.

    We need to break up the cronies. The transactions need to happen between consumers and businesses. That means consumers pay healthcare providers directly. That means consumers get reimbursed for claims directly. No more fixing prices. As a healthcare provider, you need to provide a level of service for a price I’m willing to pay. And if you want a lot of customers, you’ll need to figure out how to make that affordable to enough people for you to make a go of your business. Not everyone is rich. So you’ll need to be innovative. Insurance companies will have to do the same. But not everyone on the supply side will make it. That kind of market won’t efficiently extract anywhere near what it does from consumers today.

    I think a free market would work just fine in healthcare for most people. There will be people who fall through the cracks, and we need to figure out how to handle that.

    The problem is, there’s not a Democrat currently breathing who would support any of that. And I’m not sure there’s a Republican either. Republicans in Congress talk a good free-market game, but in their hearts, they’re crony capitalists. Trying to break up the coitus (coitus intruptus, if you will) between providers and government is not going to happen because there is too much money at stake which could potentially be left in consumers’ pockets.
     

    BigRed

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    There was a time when we would defend ourselves from socialists and communists and stack them high and deep like cordwood.

    Now they run for office.
     

    Twangbanger

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    You guys are not wrong. It needs fixed, but that’s like telling grown ass spoiled brats they have to be responsible. De-cronying the healthcare system is hard. It’s so entangled with big insurance, big healthcare, big pharma, and big government, I’m not sure it can be fixed. Republicans like to talk about things like allowing insurance companies to go across state lines, and yes, that would be a step in the right direction. But a 6 inch step towards a thousand mile destination is a step in the right direction, but not a very impactful step.

    Here’s what I think would help. The consumer must be put back into the market as an equal transactor. Right now, we pay premiums to insurance companies to pay for our healthcare. There’s very little market pressure to keep costs down. Of course providers naturally want to sell their services for as much as they can get. Insurance companies would like to pay out as little as possible. But because of the crony relationship with government and providers, and the power that gives them over consumers, insurance companies aren’t as interested in price shopping as we are. They can just raise our premiums. And if we want healthcare, we have to pay it. Our system is legalized price-fixing.

    We need to break up the cronies. The transactions need to happen between consumers and businesses. That means consumers pay healthcare providers directly. That means consumers get reimbursed for claims directly. No more fixing prices. As a healthcare provider, you need to provide a level of service for a price I’m willing to pay. And if you want a lot of customers, you’ll need to figure out how to make that affordable to enough people for you to make a go of your business. Not everyone is rich. So you’ll need to be innovative. Insurance companies will have to do the same. But not everyone on the supply side will make it. That kind of market won’t efficiently extract anywhere near what it does from consumers today.

    I think a free market would work just fine in healthcare for most people. There will be people who fall through the cracks, and we need to figure out how to handle that.

    The problem is, there’s not a Democrat currently breathing who would support any of that. And I’m not sure there’s a Republican either. Republicans in Congress talk a good free-market game, but in their hearts, they’re crony capitalists. Trying to break up the coitus (coitus intruptus, if you will) between providers and government is not going to happen because there is too much money at stake which could potentially be left in consumers’ pockets.

    The INGO rep-fixing-cartel is still telling me I have to spread it around. You blimey nailed it as usual. We have a government-industrial complex in healthcare which substantially out-performs the military-industrial complex in its level of control, because it deals in a commodity that every single person must eventually use.

    And people like Lizzie Pocahontas and Bernie Sanders want to increase the Government's stake in the cartel.
     

    BugI02

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    You guys are not wrong. It needs fixed, but that’s like telling grown ass spoiled brats they have to be responsible. De-cronying the healthcare system is hard. It’s so entangled with big insurance, big healthcare, big pharma, and big government, I’m not sure it can be fixed. Republicans like to talk about things like allowing insurance companies to go across state lines, and yes, that would be a step in the right direction. But a 6 inch step towards a thousand mile destination is a step in the right direction, but not a very impactful step.

    Here’s what I think would help. The consumer must be put back into the market as an equal transactor. Right now, we pay premiums to insurance companies to pay for our healthcare. There’s very little market pressure to keep costs down. Of course providers naturally want to sell their services for as much as they can get. Insurance companies would like to pay out as little as possible. But because of the crony relationship with government and providers, and the power that gives them over consumers, insurance companies aren’t as interested in price shopping as we are. They can just raise our premiums. And if we want healthcare, we have to pay it. Our system is legalized price-fixing.

    We need to break up the cronies. The transactions need to happen between consumers and businesses. That means consumers pay healthcare providers directly. That means consumers get reimbursed for claims directly. No more fixing prices. As a healthcare provider, you need to provide a level of service for a price I’m willing to pay. And if you want a lot of customers, you’ll need to figure out how to make that affordable to enough people for you to make a go of your business. Not everyone is rich. So you’ll need to be innovative. Insurance companies will have to do the same. But not everyone on the supply side will make it. That kind of market won’t efficiently extract anywhere near what it does from consumers today.

    I think a free market would work just fine in healthcare for most people. There will be people who fall through the cracks, and we need to figure out how to handle that.

    The problem is, there’s not a Democrat currently breathing who would support any of that. And I’m not sure there’s a Republican either. Republicans in Congress talk a good free-market game, but in their hearts, they’re crony capitalists. Trying to break up the coitus (coitus intruptus, if you will) between providers and government is not going to happen because there is too much money at stake which could potentially be left in consumers’ pockets.

    A fine analysis, as far as it goes. Now, on to implementation

    Below are listed some consensus contenders for President in 2020. Since you are fond of rank order voting, please number them from 1 to 12 with 1 being most likely to actually make meaningful changes to health care to drive the system toward your desired state. Just for fun, perhaps separated by a semi-colon, rank them again to include consideration of whether they would have the clout with congress to have a chance of implementing their ideas

    Trump

    Kasich

    Biden

    Sanders

    Warren

    Kamala Harris

    Cory Booker

    Kirsten Gillibrand

    Deval Patrick

    Ocasio-Cortez

    Austin Petersen

    Bill Weld

    Feel free to add in anyone you feel I have wrongfully forgotten. There are no Green Party candidates listed because I had trouble finding two sources that agreed on who they might be

     

    Hoosierkav

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    Has anyone seen a projection about the % in taxes we each will pay to make this pipe dream happen?

    I am thinking about what things would look like in this "utopia". The federal government determines your salary. The government determines the price of goods. Of housing. Of education (home schools will be axed, since there is no control). How in the world would they justify this via the Constitution? How is this idea not in violation of the 10th Amendment? "If you want federal dollars, you will bow to us"???
     

    jamil

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    A fine analysis, as far as it goes. Now, on to implementation

    Below are listed some consensus contenders for President in 2020. Since you are fond of rank order voting, please number them from 1 to 12 with 1 being most likely to actually make meaningful changes to health care to drive the system toward your desired state. Just for fun, perhaps separated by a semi-colon, rank them again to include consideration of whether they would have the clout with congress to have a chance of implementing their ideas

    Trump

    Kasich

    Biden

    Sanders

    Warren

    Kamala Harris

    Cory Booker

    Kirsten Gillibrand

    Deval Patrick

    Ocasio-Cortez

    Austin Petersen

    Bill Weld

    Feel free to add in anyone you feel I have wrongfully forgotten. There are no Green Party candidates listed because I had trouble finding two sources that agreed on who they might be

    That’s not the right question. There is nearly zero likelihood that healthcare will become effectively more open market than it is now. In terms of healthcare as a motivator for voting, the least worst option is not to go any further towards socialized healthcare. And even with Trump that one may not be on the table.

    On the republican side unless Trump is primaried successfully by an actual free market capitalist, we’ll likely have to settle for the crony capitalist/status quo—if we’re lucky. If we’re unlucky, and the Democrats figute out how to socially engineer Trump, well, he could make things worse.

    So the right question is, rank-order least worst. The answer to that question has all the dems tied for last place.
     
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