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  1. #1041
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoughMade View Post
    Falsely reporting a crime is already against the law. It's a class B or A misdemeanor depending upon the circumstances and, in my opinion, should be a felony in many circumstances. However, private citizens can't force charges to be filed.

    As with any crime, restitution can be ordered, but private lawsuits have a greater chance of higher verdicts....but you can't get blood from a stone whether it's criminal restitution or a private lawsuit.
    But the way many of these red flag laws are written, isn’t it more like an EPO, where it’s a civil acton, and not criminal? Charges aren’t filed against the person. It’s just that their guns are taken away, as well as having the possibility to be held for psychological evaluation. And, it’s generally the officers that make the determination whether or not the criteria are met.

    That makes it less likely anyone would ever be charged with a felony if that were the law. Officers, exercising their discretion, would most likely be protected by qualified immunity for wrongly invoking a red-flag law to take someone’s guns away. Who are you gonna sue? Who are you gonna charge with a felony? The person who called the cops? The cops? Fat chance of that working.

    I started out this post meaning to agree with Rhino, and I really want people who use the law as a weapon to be charged with a felony. But in thinking that out, I kinda doubt it really offers a practical protection, especially if it’s one person’s word along with some circumstantial evidence, against another's, and the cops are in a district where gun ownership is frowned upon anyway.
    I have spoken.

  2. #1042
    Grandmaster HoughMade's Avatar

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    You make a good point. Criminal charges do not have to be actually filed for there to be a "false report of a a crime", but I can imagine some circumstances that could trigger red flag actions that would not fall under the heading of a "false report of a crime", I think most would, but I can see those that wouldn't. That needs to be addressed.
    ​Bullies suck. They also make you stronger.

  3. #1043
    Grandmaster rhino's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoughMade View Post
    You make a good point. Criminal charges do not have to be actually filed for there to be a "false report of a a crime", but I can imagine some circumstances that could trigger red flag actions that would not fall under the heading of a "false report of a crime", I think most would, but I can see those that wouldn't. That needs to be addressed.
    In a world where "SWATting" is a reality, it not only needs to be addressed, it should be addressed before any red flag law law is enacted. I'm more concerned about some jackass who dislikes me or my politics using such a law to hurt me because they can than I am about a disgruntled spouse.



    "The people shall have a right to bear arms, for the defense of themselves and the State."
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    Article 1 - Bill of Rights - Section 32

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  4. #1044
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoughMade View Post
    You make a good point. Criminal charges do not have to be actually filed for there to be a "false report of a a crime", but I can imagine some circumstances that could trigger red flag actions that would not fall under the heading of a "false report of a crime", I think most would, but I can see those that wouldn't. That needs to be addressed.
    But red flag laws aren’t specifically for “crimes”. A crime would be charged if one were discovered during investigation, but the red flag law is for behavior, not necessary criminal, that would indicate the person is a danger to society. It allows the authorities to take weapons away from such people once the determination has been made.

    The person would only be taken into custody only if they found a crime in their investigation, or they determined that a psychological evaluation was warranted. And it’s a civil action, not a criminal action. At least that’s been my understanding of such laws that have been passed in various states.
    I have spoken.

  5. #1045
    Grandmaster HoughMade's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamil View Post
    But red flag laws aren’t specifically for “crimes”. A crime would be charged if one were discovered during investigation, but the red flag law is for behavior, not necessary criminal, that would indicate the person is a danger to society. It allows the authorities to take weapons away from such people once the determination has been made.

    The person would only be taken into custody only if they found a crime in their investigation, or they determined that a psychological evaluation was warranted. And it’s a civil action, not a criminal action. At least that’s been my understanding of such laws that have been passed in various states.
    Well, if someone reported that "my ex-husband has a lot of guns and he threatened to shoot me"- that's a false report of a crime even if no crime is ever charged.

    In any event, I just spent several minutes writing to my state senator and state rep. identifying this hole in the false reporting statute and suggesting a specific change to the law to address it.
    ​Bullies suck. They also make you stronger.

  6. #1046
    Le mot juste 2A_Tom's Avatar

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    Well, make your case here so we have the skinny and can write to our reps.

    Please.




  7. #1047
    Grandmaster HoughMade's Avatar

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    Well, OK

    Dear Senator ___________,

    I write concerning the interplay between two (2) statutes, namely, Ind. Code § 35-44.1-2-3 regarding “False Reporting or Informing” and Ind. Code § 35-47-14-1, et seq., regarding “Proceedings for the Seizure and Retention of a Firearm “, also known as “Laird’s Law” or Indiana’s “Red Flag” law.

    I understand that “Laird’s Law” took effect several years ago, but with the state-wide and national attention being paid to “red-flag” laws, those in the firearms/Second Amendment community have raised concerns about the possible misuse of such laws. In looking at the interplay between the two (2) statutes identified above, it has occurred to me that because the seizure of firearms is more in the nature of a civil action and can be completely divorced from any criminal charges, the current “False Reporting” law may not be adequate to address the possibility of intentional false reports made by people with ill intent or a grudge of some sort in order to have the firearms of people who are not dangerous removed. The “False Reporting” statute does, indeed, make it a crime to give “a false report of the commission of a crime or gives false information in the official investigation of the commission of a crime, knowing the report or information to be false…” However, a report under Laird’s Law may not be a report of a commission of a crime and may not trigger an “official investigation” of the commission of a crime. Therefore, a person could make false reports to trigger a Laird’s Law action and have no crime under which they can be charged. I believe that this is an oversight that must be corrected to allow Laird’s Law to serve its useful purpose without being abused.

    Ind. Code § 35-44.1-2-3 regarding “False Reporting or Informing” includes several very specific provisions that make specific false reports a crime. I believe that it would be appropriate to amend this law to include a provision such as this:

    “(d) A person who:…

    …(8) gives a false report of a "dangerous person" as defined by Ind. Code § 35-47-14-1 with the intent to have a proceeding to seize firearms initiated

    knowing the report or information to be false;

    commits false informing, a Class B misdemeanor. However, the offense is a Class A misdemeanor if it substantially hinders any law enforcement process or if it results in harm to another person.”

    I believe that the inclusion a specific provision regarding false reports under Laird’s Law would go a long way to quelling much of the opposition to so-called “red-flag” laws. Unless there is a specific crime covering false reports, the more coverage “red-flag” laws get, the more likely to be abused they are.
    Now, personally, I would like to see this go from a possible A misdemeanor to a Level 6 felony, but I figured one step at a time.
    ​Bullies suck. They also make you stronger.

  8. #1048
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by HoughMade View Post
    Well, if someone reported that "my ex-husband has a lot of guns and he threatened to shoot me"- that's a false report of a crime even if no crime is ever charged.

    In any event, I just spent several minutes writing to my state senator and state rep. identifying this hole in the false reporting statute and suggesting a specific change to the law to address it.
    I don’t want to get into what about this or that, but just to make sure it’s addressed. Id like to know, is the red flag law or those like it a civil action or criminal action? If someone threatened someone with a gun, that’s a crime anyway.

    That wouldn’t address some nutter posting on the internet that he’s gonna go kill a bunch of people. As far as I know, that’s not against the law. Would logically get you watched, but not arrested if you haven’t committed a crime. That’s what I thought red flag laws were for. To give law enforcement a way to intervene, either to force a mental evaluation and/or temporarily confiscate firearms. If a crime is committed, charge the crime and lock ‘em up.
    I have spoken.

  9. #1049
    Grandmaster Dead Duck's Avatar

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    Swatting has always been a normal strategy among drug dealers and most all underworld organizations and long before it was called swatting. It keeps down the monopoly effect from the competition.
    Why lose your own guys with a war when you can just use the cops.


    Ya... Ya, I know they can't just act on every anonymous tip and there's a lot more to it all but they can't ignore them all either. Especially when you keep getting the same kind of tips from (what seems like) different sources. It could be real or it could be just one creative individual. If you pay someone enough money (drugs) they will say just about anything you want them to say.

    As a cop I'll bet it's real tempting to act fast especially when it's time sensitive.

    I think "Swatting" can be used for this "Red Flag" crap just as easy.




    *Disclaimer - I am not part of and/or have never been part of any illegal organization that you know of.









    Just some thoughts.
    Now back to my Pee-Wee's Playhouse Marathon.

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  10. #1050
    Grandmaster DoggyDaddy's Avatar

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    Slight thread jack, but any discussion of red flag laws and SWATting reminds me of this joke...

    "Hello, is this the police?"

    "Yes, what do you want?"

    "I'm calling to report my neighbor Billy Bob Smith! He is hiding marijuana inside his firewood."

    "Thank you very much for the call, sir."

    The next day, cops descend on Billy Bob's house. They search the shed where the firewood is kept. Using axes, they bust open every piece of wood, but find no marijuana. They swore at Billy Bob and left.

    The phone rings at Billy Bob's house.

    "Hey, Billy Bob! Did the police come?"

    "Yeah!"

    "Did they chop your firewood?"

    "Yep."

    "Happy Birthday, Buddy!"


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