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  1. #161
    Grandmaster Alpo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by two70 View Post
    It seems to me that you are making a big assumption (change agent=cause of Islamic revolution) based on facts not in evidence. The 25 year delay between the two events alone should induce some doubt into such a simple, direct causation. I really don't see the appeal of making excuses for Islamists but apparently its a thing for some.
    It's basic math, grasshopper. In this case, causation and correlation closely align. You catalyze a regime change and the downstream effects are on you.
    I all too often ran out of talent well before the exit of the turn. (© Señor Mouse)

  2. #162
    Expert two70's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
    It's basic math, grasshopper. In this case, causation and correlation closely align. You catalyze a regime change and the downstream effects are on you.
    Sorry, but your math is severely flawed as typically happens when you decide on the result then make up the equation to get there. There's a pretty good reason why stats 101 goes to such great pains to belabor the point that correlation does not equal causation. Exactly how long downstream are we required to take responsibility for the Islamists' actions? In perpetuity I suspect. Or is there some faint possibility, many, many eons from now that Islamists in Iran may be held accountable for their own actions? Again, I don't see the appeal of enabling Islamists.

  3. #163
    INGO Clown printcraft's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by two70 View Post
    ....Again, I don't see the appeal of enabling Islamists.

    Wait wait wait..... Don't you know?

    If you appease them they'll chop your head off last.
    Quote Originally Posted by SkinNFluff View Post
    At a family gathering, my sister was getting ready to leave. She walked up and gave me a hug and said "Your phone is poking me." I smiled and replied simply with "That's not my phone".
    Quote Originally Posted by Leggdpms View Post
    ...he said alright sir and shaked my hard and said he has respect...
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow8088 View Post
    I cocked my head to the side a little and was admiring his piece.
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    And seriously, where are those testicles being served? I want to just shove a handful into my mouth.

  4. #164
    Grandmaster Alpo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by two70 View Post
    Sorry, but your math is severely flawed as typically happens when you decide on the result then make up the equation to get there. There's a pretty good reason why stats 101 goes to such great pains to belabor the point that correlation does not equal causation. Exactly how long downstream are we required to take responsibility for the Islamists' actions? In perpetuity I suspect. Or is there some faint possibility, many, many eons from now that Islamists in Iran may be held accountable for their own actions? Again, I don't see the appeal of enabling Islamists.
    If you read a little more closely, I said something about the propinquity of the situation, not equivalency. However, failure to recognize second or third order effects of decisions is typical.

    Your move.
    I all too often ran out of talent well before the exit of the turn. (© Señor Mouse)

  5. #165
    Grandmaster IndyDave1776's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
    It's basic math, grasshopper. In this case, causation and correlation closely align. You catalyze a regime change and the downstream effects are on you.
    Excellent point. Jimmy Carter strongarmed the Shah into basically allowing the 1979 revolution to happen unopposed and...drumroll...we are now dealing with Iran as the world's leading state sponsor of terror.

    Very nicely discerned!
    Government and pedophiles both practice buggering those powerless to defend themselves.

  6. #166
    I still care....Really
    churchmouse's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by IndyDave1776 View Post
    Excellent point. Jimmy Carter strongarmed the Shah into basically allowing the 1979 revolution to happen unopposed and...drumroll...we are now dealing with Iran as the world's leading state sponsor of terror.

    Very nicely discerned!
    I forgot all about that part of Jimmy pitiful 4 years at the helm.
    AKA..Thor. Odin son. God of thunder.
    But you can call me John.....Force.

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  7. #167
    Grandmaster Alpo's Avatar

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    And 55 mph.

    That's was a bad deal.
    I all too often ran out of talent well before the exit of the turn. (© Señor Mouse)

  8. #168
    Grandmaster ghuns's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BugI02 View Post
    Do you have a fact-based citation that the CIA had a hand in creating the SAVAK or is it just the usual drippings from the "US bad" swill?
    Again, I was not aware that fact remained in dispute.

    Iran's Feared SAVAK: Norman Schwarzkopf’s Father Had Greater Impact On Middle East Affairs

    In August 1953, through the auspices of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency and British intelligence, in cooperation with forces loyal to Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, the Shah of Iran, the popularly-elected Prime Minister of Iran, Mohammad Mosaddegh, was forcibly removed from power.


    Mossadegh's “crime” had been to support the nationalization of Iran's key oil industry -- a grave affront to British oil companies. The 1953 coup not only ended Iran's attempt to control its own hugely lucrative petroleum sector, but likely also killed any chances for Iran developing into a democratic society.


    Schwarzkopf Sr. played a major role in this forcible “regime change.”


    Under a CIA operation called “Operation Ajax,” Schwarzkopf Sr. had been sent to Iran to encourage the Shah to return to power and, most crucially, helped him in the quest by forming and training security forces that would be loyal to the Shah. These security agents would eventually metamorphose into the dreaded and feared SAVAK secret police, one of the most brutal foundations of the Shah’s power.


    Israel’s Mossad spy agency also assisted in training SAVAK agents in the arts of interrogation, surveillance and torture.


    SAVAK basically served as an intelligence agency with unlimited police powers -- and a very effective deterrent to any opposition to the Shah. Officers of the organization could spy on or arrest almost anybody at will and frequently used torture to gain information or to simply intimidate the populace.
    How Did Our Friend Iran Become Our Enemy?

    In 1957, CIA secret agents helped the Shah establish SAVAK. Originally, this was intended to be an intelligence-gathering agency, but soon its mission became to help the Shah’s friends and destroy his enemies. If widely-published reports are to be believed, SAVAK had as many as 60,000 secret agents, informers and collaborators. SAVAK’s interrogation methods were said to include rape, extracting fingernails and attaching high voltage power lines to genitals.
    Or do you believe the CIA was present in late 1950 Iran to teach them the virtue of Murrica style democracy?

    Again, we aren't always bad. Not even most of the time. But this was not a moment in time to be proud of.
    Necessity is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

  9. #169
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghuns View Post
    Again, we aren't always bad. Not even most of the time. But this was not a moment in time to be proud of.
    By the scorekeeping of that time, it was a moment to take pride in. That secret, inner-circle pride that most CIA victories get.

    Like with many other things, we are at risk of judging the past by today's standards.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  10. #170
    Grandmaster ghuns's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    By the scorekeeping of that time, it was a moment to take pride in. That secret, inner-circle pride that most CIA victories get.

    Like with many other things, we are at risk of judging the past by today's standards.
    I don't know, was it cool in the 50s to install a puppet regime so the Brits didn't lose out on a substantial investment in Iranian oil? Was it OK to train and support a secret police agency, that made the Stasi look like choirboys, to keep that regime in power?

    Maybe it was.

    Hopefully, the resulting decades serve as warning in case we get any ideas about trying again. But I doubt it.

    Necessity is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

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