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  1. #171
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghuns View Post
    I don't know, was it cool in the 50s to install a puppet regime so the Brits didn't lose out on a substantial investment in Iranian oil? Was it OK to train and support a secret police agency, that made the Stasi look like choirboys, to keep that regime in power?

    Maybe it was.

    Hopefully, the resulting decades serve as warning in case we get any ideas about trying again. But I doubt it.
    We don't see many bombing-of-Dresden style airstrikes, either. Times change. Cultures evolve. What was once tolerated, even encouraged, becomes taboo.

    There's no value judgment there, just an observation.

    Some might say it indicates a softening of a society's intestinal fortitude to do what must be done. That would be a value judgment.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  2. #172
    Expert MarkC's Avatar

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    As with so many issues, it is important to consider that decisions were made based on acceptable attitudes and judgment at the time.

    Revisionist thinking applies today's values on tough decisions and actions made under very different circumstances. And, it is fair to say that we, as a society have grown substantially, and many practices that were once acceptable or even necessary are now considered wrong by a majority of us.

    I am one who believes as T.Lex notes, there is a softening of intestinal fortitude. Where we may have the capacity and willingness to treat our own people well, but others view that as weakness. We have to consider who we are dealing with. The Iranian leadership would not be concerned one bit about inflicting savagery upon us. I am not advocating that we do so to them, but that we have to keep that in mind when formulating responses. Their leadership is using middle-ages religious dogma as a tool to keep themselves in power (although I'm sure there are many true believers there, too).

  3. #173
    Grandmaster BugI02's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ghuns View Post
    Again, I was not aware that fact remained in dispute.

    Iran's Feared SAVAK: Norman Schwarzkopf’s Father Had Greater Impact On Middle East Affairs



    How Did Our Friend Iran Become Our Enemy?



    Or do you believe the CIA was present in late 1950 Iran to teach them the virtue of Murrica style democracy?

    Again, we aren't always bad. Not even most of the time. But this was not a moment in time to be proud of.
    I think the CIA was present in Iran to help prevent Communism from gaining a greater foothold in the ME, right or wrong. Note the mention in your cite of uncovering a Tudeh party network in the Iran military in 1954

    Your cite goes on to mention what the SAVAK became in the 60s and 70s without a shred of evidence that any US operative was urging it in that direction. Guilt by temporal association? Shwatzkopf's dad died in 1958

    I've given you links to actual FOAI information on what happened in that period (but you must allow for the biases of the people sending the communiques) so you can draw your own conclusions, cognizant that worries about communist infiltration in important geopolitical assets was a very big thing at the time (consider Egypt under Nasser unfolding at the same time). Contemporaneous sources indicate Moseddegh had linkage to and major support by communists and the CIA was aware of it. And the whole 'blood for oil' narrative is oversimplification, the Brits had basically built the Iranian oil infrastructure from scratch and thus had considerable sunk costs that they wished to be compensated for and had converted their navy to oil from coal out of consideration of the resources availability to them and thus Iran was considered a strategic asset by them. Imposing some narrative incorporating modern sensibilities on events for which factual information on what really happened and motivations of the players is severely lacking is just an exercize in propaganda

    When do you work the Rothschilds into your narrative? Why do you blame the US for SAVAK but (seemingly) not the SIS. Why would our taking the side of the ally that had arguably just done the most of any state to help us win WWII and was helping us immensely during the developing cold war (and with whom we did, indeed, have a 'special relationship') be even in question, or evidence that we could forsee exactly how events would turn out or be desirous of those results?
    Are you adequately taking into account events of greater concern, such as what was happening in Korea when you consider how determined we might be to stop the spread of communism. Are you adequately considering that even if we knew every eventual outcome of our maneuvering, that we still might have made the correct call?
    You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you

  4. #174
    Grandmaster Alpo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    We don't see many bombing-of-Dresden style airstrikes, either. Times change. Cultures evolve. What was once tolerated, even encouraged, becomes taboo.

    There's no value judgment there, just an observation.

    Some might say it indicates a softening of a society's intestinal fortitude to do what must be done. That would be a value judgment.
    Is objection to the employment of child or slave labor "revisionist thinking" and pussification? I think not.

    Britain's Empire was a scourge. That it was destroyed as a result of WWII was a good thing.
    I all too often ran out of talent well before the exit of the turn. (© Señor Mouse)

  5. #175
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
    Is objection to the employment of child or slave labor "revisionist thinking" and pussification? I think not.
    I did not label it "revisionist," and am, in fact, trying to point out that to scrutinize historical events based on modern ethics is revisionist.

    Separately, the lack of child labor (using your example) is making the "western" world progressively... less sturdy. And less violent. And less cruel. Many parents don't even push their kids to even work around the house! Having seen millenials try to "work" in a "job"... they are softer than even my generation (GenX). And that's saying something.

    There are tradeoffs to progress. To be clear, I'm not saying the old ways were better. I'm just saying times were different.

    Britain's Empire was a scourge. That it was destroyed as a result of WWII was a good thing.
    Like most human endeavors, Pax Britannica was a mixed bag. That it faded was inevitable.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  6. #176
    Grandmaster Alpo's Avatar

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    Mixed bag? The sob's are still among the most obnoxious people on the planet.
    I all too often ran out of talent well before the exit of the turn. (© Señor Mouse)

  7. #177
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
    Mixed bag? The sob's are still among the most obnoxious people on the planet.
    ... said an American.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  8. #178
    Grandmaster DoggyDaddy's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    ... said an American.
    Well, they severely overcook their beef, and I've heard they even drink their beer warm. Savages!

  9. #179
    Master Lex Concord's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
    And 55 mph.

    That's was a bad deal.
    It worked out well for Sammy Hagar...
    Quote Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin
    Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tench Coxe
    Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American ... the unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blakstone
    It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer.

  10. #180
    Grandmaster Alpo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    ... said an American.
    Of course I'm American. With LOTS of contact and experience with the limey bastards. Even the bin collectors are arrogant!
    I all too often ran out of talent well before the exit of the turn. (© Señor Mouse)

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