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  1. #11
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by COOPADUP View Post
    Mgderf is correct, Trump has slapped them in the face....
    I may've missed something, but... to what does this refer? How/when did Trump slap Iran in the face?
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  2. #12
    Plinker Romero Zombie's Avatar

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    Anyone else think this whole thing is just a false flag operation to help out those poor Military Industrial Complex folks? Seal team 3 plants a few mines and Trump says Iran did it? Wouldn’t surprise me at all.

  3. #13
    Expert two70's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameramonkey View Post
    Agreed. Maybe multiple missle/radar sites as a show of force. I think that is a measured, appropriate response much like a parent would take away the x-box because the child was caught playing when they shouldnt have been. Or take away the car because the kid cant follow the speed limit and now has a $200 ticket. And in the latter example, not only take away his car, but not allow him to drive yours either; "Not only are we going to take away the car you were speeding in, we are also going to remove your ability to do it again with any of the other cars as well." (Not saying we should take out ALL SAM sites)
    IMO, the problem with a "measured, appropriate" response as it is typically stated is that it allows plenty of opportunity for Iran to respond and escalate the situation even more. A quick, overwhelming response that does enough damage to prevent Iran from being an effective pain in the ass for the next 5-10 years would be preferable and help prevent an escalation loop from occurring.

    It really pisses me off to think that a lot of this could, perhaps, have been avoided if Obama would have had enough spine to at least verbally support the popular uprising that sprung up in Iran briefly during his term. The lack of any kind of outside support doomed the uprising from the beginning and ensured that those in Tehran would have an even firmer control of the populace. Then of course the nuclear arms deal only exasperated the situation and emboldened Iran.

  4. #14
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romero Zombie View Post
    Anyone else think this whole thing is just a false flag operation to help out those poor Military Industrial Complex folks? Seal team 3 plants a few mines and Trump says Iran did it? Wouldn’t surprise me at all.
    If Iran proclaims that they shot down the drone, how can it be a false flag?

    The limpet mines... ok... maybe... since Iran actually denied it... and floated (pardon the pun) that those were actual false flag ops.

    But the drone? I'm not seeing it.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  5. #15
    Expert MarkC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by two70 View Post
    IMO, the problem with a "measured, appropriate" response as it is typically stated is that it allows plenty of opportunity for Iran to respond and escalate the situation even more. A quick, overwhelming response that does enough damage to prevent Iran from being an effective pain in the ass for the next 5-10 years would be preferable and help prevent an escalation loop from occurring.

    It really pisses me off to think that a lot of this could, perhaps, have been avoided if Obama would have had enough spine to at least verbally support the popular uprising that sprung up in Iran briefly during his term. The lack of any kind of outside support doomed the uprising from the beginning and ensured that those in Tehran would have an even firmer control of the populace. Then of course the nuclear arms deal only exasperated the situation and emboldened Iran.
    As part of our response, we have to consider not only Iran but how their neighbors and allies might construe an overwhelming response that takes Iran back to the Stone Age.

    There is a nuclear power with former client states slightly north of Iran who, rightly or wrongly, perceives they need a lot of buffer space to maintain their safety and sovereignty.

    It's all interconnected.


    ETA: I, personally, would love to see an overwhelming response, and have felt that way since the embassy takeover in 1979.

  6. #16
    Grandmaster ghuns's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    ...But the drone? I'm not seeing it.
    Perhaps the drone wasn't flying where we say it was?
    Necessity is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.

  7. #17
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cameramonkey View Post
    Agreed. Maybe multiple missle/radar sites as a show of force.
    Just saw a new report that the SAM was "truck launched" which probably means it was an S-300 (maybe -400, but I don't think Iran has those yet).

    In that case, yeah, you'd have to hit the base where it ostensibly resides... or one close to it. Heck, maybe take out some of their fixed SAM positions, even if those weren't the ones that launched.

    BTW, if it was an S-300, that makes it more plausible to me that the drone was in Iranian airspace, given the ranges involved and such. Wouldn't necessarily put money on it, but it makes it more plausible.

    Quote Originally Posted by ghuns View Post
    Perhaps the drone wasn't flying where we say it was?
    Oh, indeed, I totally allow that the DOD response is BS about where the lines were in relation to the drone. But I'm just saying that - if I understand "false flag" correctly - that the shoot-down of the drone can't be a false flag.

    If we actually shot down our own drone, why would Iran be so quick to claim responsibility?

    I guess its time to watch Wag the Dog again....
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  8. #18
    Grandmaster HoughMade's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Romero Zombie View Post
    Anyone else think this whole thing is just a false flag operation to help out those poor Military Industrial Complex folks? Seal team 3 plants a few mines and Trump says Iran did it? Wouldn’t surprise me at all.



    I get it- never trust what the government says...unless it's the government of Iran.

    Let's hear your views on Jet-A and structural steel.
    Last edited by HoughMade; 06-20-2019 at 14:40.
    ​Bullies suck. They also make you stronger.

  9. #19
    Grandmaster Alpo's Avatar

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    When Bush/Cheney went after Iraq, I assumed that it was at least a 3 dimension chessboard and I, as a civilian with no direct data, couldn't understand the need to invade Iraq, but assumed that the administration had plenty of data and strategic planning to support the move.

    Then, no WMD's found. Baathists taken out of power which destroyed the bureaucracy running the country. Military disbanded, creating insurgents, ISIS and greatly increasing Iran's political influence over southwest Asia and the middle East.

    The multi-dimensional chess board was really only a game of checkers played with bottlecaps.

    I do not believe the Joint Chiefs have any sort of post-invasion scenario for Iran either. Lessons of history and all that.....

    We don't need another ground war in Asia.
    I all too often ran out of talent well before the exit of the turn. (© Señor Mouse)

  10. #20
    Expert MarkC's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpo View Post
    When Bush/Cheney went after Iraq, I assumed that it was at least a 3 dimension chessboard and I, as a civilian with no direct data, couldn't understand the need to invade Iraq, but assumed that the administration had plenty of data and strategic planning to support the move.

    Then, no WMD's found. Baathists taken out of power which destroyed the bureaucracy running the country. Military disbanded, creating insurgents, ISIS and greatly increasing Iran's political influence over southwest Asia and the middle East.

    The multi-dimensional chess board was really only a game of checkers played with bottlecaps.

    I do not believe the Joint Chiefs have any sort of post-invasion scenario for Iran either. Lessons of history and all that.....

    We don't need another ground war in Asia.

    I think this hits the nail on the head. The devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

    Removing Saddam Hussein destabilized the region and removed a reliable counterbalance to Iran.

    Removing Muammar Gaddafi as dictator of Libya destabilized the region and help allow anti-western radicals to spread across the country, and, later, the region.

    These were terrible people, but is the world truly a better place with them removed from power and executed? What is/was our interest in these areas, aside from removing bad leaders?

    Gaddafi had, in a large way, quit openly fostering terrorism and was becoming, somewhat, a member of the international community, after the US caught his attention by bombing his palaces, among other measures. What message did supporting his overthrow send? It doesn't matter if you do what the US wants, they will turn on you anyway? Hard to say.

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