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  1. #191
    Grandmaster BugI02's Avatar

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    I think the Sovs tried that. Didn't work out. The Brits were trying and failing to pacify the Afghans 180 years ago
    You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you

  2. #192
    Grandmaster Kutnupe14's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by BugI02 View Post
    I think the Sovs tried that. Didn't work out. The Brits were trying and failing to pacify the Afghans 180 years ago
    No there's a significant difference between those examples. The Soviets and the British never held complete control of Afghanistan, and there was popular support, amongst Afghans, for the local powers. Neither the Soviets, nor the British were seen in a favorable light. Pacifying Iraq was the easy part, letting them govern themselves with us as "muscle" was the difficult/stupid part. Democracy may be the best form of government, but not everybody is ready for it. Just like anything, if you don't work for it yourself, it won't mean that much to you.
    I Have the Worst Crew Ever

  3. #193
    Expert NKBJ's Avatar

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    Success depends upon the goals.
    Who thinks they can accurately list them?

  4. #194
    Master Tombs's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by NKBJ View Post
    Success depends upon the goals.
    Who thinks they can accurately list them?
    Make Israel happy.

    That's goal no.1 thru 100.
    "Fiat justitia ruat caelum" - Trey Gowdy

  5. #195
    Master AmmoManAaron's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tombs View Post
    Unless you wipe out everything and everyone, when you're fighting an ideology, you're just breeding your next conflict.

    Best to stay at home unless you have the guts to actually do it.
    I think that's an overly simplistic view. We didn't kill every German or Japanese soldier, let alone every German or Japanese civilian that shared their ideology. We killed them until they gave up. The Iraqis gave up and generally wanted to get their country back in order after the war, but the post-war police action failed for a large variety of reasons - some within our control and some not in our control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kutnupe14 View Post
    I think there's a distinction to be made here. The Iraq WAR went perfectly. The military went in, kicked butt, and defeated the enemy. The Iraq POLICE ACTION was a failure. We shouldn't expect our military to particularly capable during a war/police action mix, unless after the ceasing of war hostilities, we go in and craft their government from the ground up. Iraq, post "war," was a failure because we allowed the locals too much power afterwards, rather than making them a puppet that you gradually allow autonomy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kutnupe14 View Post
    No there's a significant difference between those examples. The Soviets and the British never held complete control of Afghanistan, and there was popular support, amongst Afghans, for the local powers. Neither the Soviets, nor the British were seen in a favorable light. Pacifying Iraq was the easy part, letting them govern themselves with us as "muscle" was the difficult/stupid part. Democracy may be the best form of government, but not everybody is ready for it. Just like anything, if you don't work for it yourself, it won't mean that much to you.
    I agree with Kut - twice! Germany and Japan were fairly modern nations with a fairly educated populace and both cultures valued order and self-improvement. It's a lot easier to start with that as a base, install your puppet gov't, and build up to democracy from there. Iraq was more of a challenge, but might have been a success if we had done a better job. Afghanistan? Forget it! Too many fractured loyalties, too backwards culturally, and minimal civilian education.
    "2016: The year that hackers became more trusted than government or reporters."

  6. #196
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    While it may not be a *itch slap, Britain has at least tapped Iran on the shoulder by seizing one of its oil tankers.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1TZ0GN
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  7. #197
    Grandmaster Kutnupe14's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    While it may not be a *itch slap, Britain has at least tapped Iran on the shoulder by seizing one of its oil tankers.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKCN1TZ0GN
    I was half asleep when I was listening, but I "think" they were saying that the British did this in Spanish waters, at the request of the United States.
    I Have the Worst Crew Ever

  8. #198
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutnupe14 View Post
    I was half asleep when I was listening, but I "think" they were saying that the British did this in Spanish waters, at the request of the United States.
    The water around Gibraltar has a bunch of lines, and not all of them are agreed upon. I haven't seen it confirmed, but it does look like the UK acted upon a request by us. Which actually says quite a bit about the health of our relationship, that they would do something like this for us. They've put themselves out there front and center against Iran with this.

    Having said that, the evidence seems pretty compelling that this tanker was up to something nefarious.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  9. #199
    Grandmaster Kutnupe14's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.Lex View Post
    The water around Gibraltar has a bunch of lines, and not all of them are agreed upon. I haven't seen it confirmed, but it does look like the UK acted upon a request by us. Which actually says quite a bit about the health of our relationship, that they would do something like this for us. They've put themselves out there front and center against Iran with this.

    Having said that, the evidence seems pretty compelling that this tanker was up to something nefarious.
    I get what you're saying, but I can't but find it odd that people call it "nefarious," when one nation is trying to sell it's own stuff to another nation. I mean, we're not talking about weapons, but oil/gas right?
    I Have the Worst Crew Ever

  10. #200
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kutnupe14 View Post
    I get what you're saying, but I can't but find it odd that people call it "nefarious," when one nation is trying to sell it's own stuff to another nation. I mean, we're not talking about weapons, but oil/gas right?
    Well, we don't actually know (yet) what was on the boat.

    It filled up in Iraq, but there's no manifest that says it was there. It appeared on tracking services near an Iranian oil export port. It is Panamanian flagged, but I saw reports that Panama revoked that status because of suspicious activities. It also traveled ALL THE WAY AROUND AFRICA to get to the Med.

    I suspect there were other indications, not public, that connected some dots.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

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