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  1. #101
    Grandmaster ATOMonkey's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jludo View Post
    Except that where scientists don't know they say 'we dont know' where the religious don't know they say God, then have to decide how to pick which religion they want.
    If a scientist or mathematician or whoever doesn't know, they will hypothesize and theorize and plunge ahead assuming their theories are correct, as most of the really far out stuff isn't testable, but it's still considered to be "fact" until proven otherwise. It's just as dogmatic as most religion in my experience.

    And yes, you do get to pick which team you want to be on, just like you do with science. That nearly always comes down to either how you were raised, or what you identify with the most. The fun thing about science is that there is nearly always a new team that you can jump on.

  2. #102
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    God v science...

    Do you really want to worship something you got a C+ in back in junior high?
    I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...

  3. #103
    Master Jludo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATOMonkey View Post
    If a scientist or mathematician or whoever doesn't know, they will hypothesize and theorize and plunge ahead assuming their theories are correct, as most of the really far out stuff isn't testable, but it's still considered to be "fact" until proven otherwise. It's just as dogmatic as most religion in my experience.
    You must have had some crazy experiences to say the scientific method is as dogmatic as religion. It is interesting though that that's the same thought process a post modernist thinker might take, that science is just as dogmatic as religion.

  4. #104
    Master Jludo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo59 View Post
    God v science...

    Do you really want to worship something you got a C+ in back in junior high?
    I was a good student both in science and bible school reading assignments, that might have been what sent me down this path, actually reading the material.

  5. #105
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    Whatever works for you, huh?

    My brother always says, "God created man in his own image, and ever since then man has been trying to return the favor..."

    A scientist will say, "I think, therefore I am!" Then they start to give names to the processes that are already at work thereby thinking they (somehow) own those processes.

    A Christian will ask, "who gave me the ability to think?" And then it is up to each one to decide what they will do with their answer. Some are better at it than others...
    I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous...

  6. #106
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATOMonkey View Post
    It's more of a spiral. I use my own observations and intellect to come to the conclusion that there must be a God, but faith in that God is required since my own physical senses and intellect can not deduce all there is to know about the supernatural.

    Same reasoning we use to support black holes, event horizons, and most quantum theory. It's spiral reasoning as well. We know something beyond the physical exists based on the changes we see in the physical, and we have faith in what we can deduce about the supernatural. Without faith that the theory is correct, then none of the conclusions are valid.
    Except it sounds to me like you're beginning with what you want to end with. Black holes, event horizons, quantum theory, things we can't see, start out as hypotheses to explain stuff. Testing those hypotheses results in either confirming them or not. Okay. So test God.

    You know. Nevermind. Jeez I hate this conversation. Arguing religion. This isn't what I want to do. Can we get back to John Adams and our social immorality?
    -spreading the word to end the r-word is retarded
    -activism is retarded because, what if you’re full of ****?

  7. #107
    Master Jludo's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamil View Post
    Except it sounds to me like you're beginning with what you want to end with. Black holes, event horizons, quantum theory, things we can't see, start out as hypotheses to explain stuff. Testing those hypotheses results in either confirming them or not. Okay. So test God.

    You know. Nevermind. Jeez I hate this conversation. Arguing religion. This isn't what I want to do. Can we get back to John Adams and our social immorality?
    Isn't the issue of morality inherently religious for most folks on here though? Its inevitably going to trend in that direction.

  8. #108
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo59 View Post
    Whatever works for you, huh?

    My brother always says, "God created man in his own image, and ever since then man has been trying to return the favor..."

    A scientist will say, "I think, therefore I am!" Then they start to give names to the processes that are already at work thereby thinking they (somehow) own those processes.

    A Christian will ask, "who gave me the ability to think?" And then it is up to each one to decide what they will do with their answer. Some are better at it than others...
    1) A philosopher says "I think, therefore I am", not a scientist.

    2) Scientists name processes for the purpose of language, so that everyone knows to what people are referring when they mention that name. Photosynthesis for example. What the **** is that? Well, if you don't know, you can look it up by name. See how handy language is? When we name things, it gives a name to things. Tautological, yes. Obviously.

    3) How would your brother know that scientists think that somehow they own the processes they've named? Taking the photosynthesis example again, it wasn't just one scientist who discovered it. It was many scientists building upon the work of others to gain a clearer understanding of how it works. There's no ownership of the process in that.

    4) in regards to "who gave me the ability to think", a scientist wouldn't constrain the curiosity about thinking to "who", but would rather ask, was it who, or was it what? So then how? when? where? why? They would seek to build upon the works of others, a clearer understanding of "thinking", than simply assuming it was a who and stopping there.
    Last edited by jamil; 08-16-2019 at 11:05.
    -spreading the word to end the r-word is retarded
    -activism is retarded because, what if you’re full of ****?

  9. #109
    Grandmaster jamil's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jludo View Post
    Isn't the issue of morality inherently religious for most folks on here though? Its inevitably going to trend in that direction.
    The spiritual component is *a* vector of inquiry for sure. It's just not *the* only one. That's the reason for my involvement in this thread. I don't care if people only care about exploring the religious connection with morality, but it's untrue that there are no other sources of morality, or that non-believers are actually relying upon religion for their moral beliefs. I would agree with them that the maturity of morality in the west was built partially upon Judaeo-Christian principles, but those principles themselves clearly evolved too. I mean, the West managed to get out of the Dark Ages, right?
    -spreading the word to end the r-word is retarded
    -activism is retarded because, what if you’re full of ****?

  10. #110
    Grandmaster BigBoxaJunk's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamil View Post
    1) A philosopher says "I think, therefore I am", not a scientist.
    That reminds me of a story about Galileo, where he'd been talked into going to a big group meeting of scientists of the day, and he spent most of his time looking through notes of whatever he was working on, never standing to speak and appearing mostly to not even be paying much attention. One day, he unexpectedly stood up during a particular contentious debate, and suddenly everyone in attendance went quite to see which side Galileo was going to offer support. Galileo said "Would someone please open one of the windows over there?" and then sat back down.

    No matter how cynical you become, it's never enough to keep up.

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