I'm beginning to think that Adam Shiff has done us a big favor.

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  • flightsimmer

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    NO! He had no intention of doing so, but none the less he is helping to drain the swamp.

    In sports as in life partisipants of a team need to work together for the same goal under a leader or coach.

    In this instance there are two recognized teams, Republicans and Democrats, but! As people are beginning to realize, there is a third unnamed team that has their finger on the scale to influence the game.

    Members of this third team may not even realize that they are on this team, others clearly do.
    They are entrenched bureaucrats who cannot or will not be team players for the elected team. They believe that they know better because they have been doing things their teams way all along and refuse to change.

    President Trump didn't clean house as Obama did, because that would be throwing out the good with the bad. Instead, he is cleaning them out as they expose themselves and this will take time, he is a team builder and give likely candidates a chance to prove or disprove themselves.

    Stay tuned, the games not over.
     

    GodFearinGunTotin

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    Time will tell. In that same vein, I'm sad to see people like Beto drop out of the race. Others have done it too but he made himself into the face of what most of us knew all along what the true goal of the democrat party really is. This was/is good. Now that he's gone, I'm afraid the others will begin backing away from those publicly stated goals to attract more reasonable democrats back into the fold.
     

    bwframe

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    Not too long ago folks were laughing about the conspiracy theories involving the deep state and a coup to remove the president. Not so much now...


    Drain that swamp...
     

    T.Lex

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    They are entrenched bureaucrats who cannot or will not be team players for the elected team. They believe that they know better because they have been doing things their teams way all along and refuse to change.

    First, the professional foreign service corps do know how to do things better than rookies at the game.

    Second, and I haven't been following the day to day theatrics of this petty soap opera, but which foreign service people failed to implement Trump's directives?

    They are now being asked, under oath, to explain whether they thought it was good or bad, but from what I can tell, the diplomats conveyed the hamfisted messages they were asked to deliver. They might've rolled their eyes while doing it and muttered under their breath how it doesn't make any sense, but they did it.
     

    printcraft

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    First, the professional foreign service corps do know how to do things better than rookies at the game.

    Second, and I haven't been following the day to day theatrics of this petty soap opera, but which foreign service people failed to implement Trump's directives?

    They are now being asked, under oath, to explain whether they thought it was good or bad, but from what I can tell, the diplomats conveyed the hamfisted messages they were asked to deliver. They might've rolled their eyes while doing it and muttered under their breath how it doesn't make any sense, but they did it.


    They delivered the policy then told the people they just delivered it to that it was to be ignored. Sounds like a team player for sure...
     

    T.Lex

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    They delivered the policy then told the people they just delivered it to that it was to be ignored. Sounds like a team player for sure...

    Who said that? Again, I'm not investing much time in this yet because I'm trying to avoid spending my day pissed off.
     

    BugI02

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    First, the professional foreign service corps do know how to do things better than rookies at the game.

    Second, and I haven't been following the day to day theatrics of this petty soap opera, but which foreign service people failed to implement Trump's directives?

    They are now being asked, under oath, to explain whether they thought it was good or bad, but from what I can tell, the diplomats conveyed the hamfisted messages they were asked to deliver. They might've rolled their eyes while doing it and muttered under their breath how it doesn't make any sense, but they did it.

    Odd that you don't consider Vindman telling the Ukraine government to ignore Trump's wishes to be not only 'failing to implement Trump's directives', but also acting far above his portfolio and pay grade and placing his desires and beliefs above those of the head of US foreign policy

    Not surprising, just odd
     

    T.Lex

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    They delivered the policy then told the people they just delivered it to that it was to be ignored. Sounds like a team player for sure...

    The blurbs popping up in my feed suggest Sondland is saying they followed the President's orders at all times.

    Nothing about anyone circumventing those directives. If there's a site that suggests otherwise, the link would be helpful. (Even if is MSM.) ;)
     

    printcraft

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    The blurbs popping up in my feed suggest Sondland is saying they followed the President's orders at all times.

    Nothing about anyone circumventing those directives. If there's a site that suggests otherwise, the link would be helpful. (Even if is MSM.) ;)


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1e67dc-01b2-11ea-8501-2a7123a38c58_story.html

    2 p.m.: Vindman questioned about why he counseled Ukrainians to stay out of U.S. politicsRep. John Ratcliffe (R-Tex.) asked Vindman why he counseled his Ukrainian counterpart to stay out of U.S. politics, suggesting that providing such advice was contrary to Trump’s wishes.

    “A week following you listening in on a phone call with the president of the United States making a request of the Ukrainian government to assist in an ongoing investigation, a member of his National Security Council subsequently told Ukrainian officials to do just the opposite and to ignore his request and stay out of U.S. politics,” Ratcliffe said.

    Vindman said Ratcliffe’s description of his actions was “an interesting characterization,” and he denied “going against the orders of my commander in chief.” He said he was providing “basic” advice. Vindman said he thought Ratcliffe was trying to “twist” his words, which Ratcliffe denied.


    There is a difference between:
    "The president wants you to look into this."
    and
    "The president wants you to look into this, but don't do it."

    One is following the presidents orders the other is directly subverting those orders.
    That is not "basic advice" that is a direct stand against a order issued by the CIC

     

    T.Lex

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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...1e67dc-01b2-11ea-8501-2a7123a38c58_story.html



    There is a difference between:
    "The president wants you to look into this."
    and
    "The president wants you to look into this, but don't do it."

    One is following the presidents orders the other is directly subverting those orders.
    That is not "basic advice" that is a direct stand against a order issued by the CIC

    Thanks. That link is behind a paywall for me, but I'll look at that a bit more when I have the chance.

    Based on the quote, though, it doesn't look like it says what you say it says.

    Quick googling and another rendition of the discussion. (I can't find the transcript quickly of that portion.)
    https://www.texastribune.org/2019/1...have-roles-public-trump-impeachment-hearings/

    “A week following you listening in on a phone call with the president of the United States making a request of the Ukrainian government to assist in an ongoing investigation, a member of his National Security Council subsequently told Ukrainian officials to do just the opposite and to ignore his request and stay out of U.S. politics,” Ratcliffe said.
    “I, as a director on the National Security Council, would certainly not counsel my counterpart to somehow involve themselves into U.S. domestic politics,” Vindman responded.

    ETA:
    @printcraft

    Here's the transcript:
    https://www.scribd.com/document/434064258/Vindman-pdf

    The part you reference starts on page 160. Its from his "deposition" which I believe was closed to the public, because there's a serious amount of lawyering going on in the middle of it. Vindman concedes both that he did not "go against" an order of the president and (he guesses, correctly) that the president has the authority to do the stuff. He just didn't like it.

    Ok. That's fair. But, he did what he was told to do.

    Some of us have been in that chair, implementing orders that they think are a bad idea.

    To Kut's point, Vindman isn't a diplomat. He's a warfighter in the national security area. His contacts would be with the same kind of person on the other side. Not a foreign service wonk.
     
    Last edited:

    Kutnupe14

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    Odd that you don't consider Vindman telling the Ukraine government to ignore Trump's wishes to be not only 'failing to implement Trump's directives', but also acting far above his portfolio and pay grade and placing his desires and beliefs above those of the head of US foreign policy

    Not surprising, just odd

    Vindman isn't in the Foreign Service. They are a group all to their own.
     

    printcraft

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    Thanks. That link is behind a paywall for me, but I'll look at that a bit more when I have the chance.

    Based on the quote, though, it doesn't look like it says what you say it says.

    Quick googling and another rendition of the discussion. (I can't find the transcript quickly of that portion.)
    https://www.texastribune.org/2019/1...have-roles-public-trump-impeachment-hearings/



    ETA:
    @printcraft

    Here's the transcript:
    https://www.scribd.com/document/434064258/Vindman-pdf

    The part you reference starts on page 160. Its from his "deposition" which I believe was closed to the public, because there's a serious amount of lawyering going on in the middle of it. Vindman concedes both that he did not "go against" an order of the president and (he guesses, correctly) that the president has the authority to do the stuff. He just didn't like it.

    Ok. That's fair. But, he did what he was told to do.

    Some of us have been in that chair, implementing orders that they think are a bad idea.


    Again, he was told what to do and he did it... but THEN he took the additional step (outside of his authority) to say DON'T do what he just said to do.

    You CLEARLY understand the difference here right?
     

    BugI02

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    Vindman is an NSC director, but that has little bearing on the fact that, according to his own testimony, he advised his 'counterpart' Zelensky (and you should find it a bit eye-opening that a functionary on an advisory council, with zero ambassadorial brevet or portfolio, should consider himself the equal of the elected head of a foreign government) not to get involved in US politics - as opposed to apparently finding nothing objectionable in Ukraine's (different gov't, I know; but arguably even more corrupt) being involved in US politics in support of Hillary and actiing against the appointments to the Trump campaign of Manafort and more importantly Flynn. I would very much like to know if he was carrying any deep state water during 2015-2016
     

    T.Lex

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    Again, he was told what to do and he did it... but THEN he took the additional step (outside of his authority) to say DON'T do what he just said to do.

    You CLEARLY understand the difference here right?

    What difference would it make? It isn't like this NSC dude had some insight into Trump. It isn't exactly rocket surgery.

    You're saying Zelenskiy is more likely to follow the advice of a functionary/analyst than listen to the various actual ambassadors and Trump himself? How would that briefing go?

    "President Zelenskiy, we have President Trump asking us to work with Rudy Guiliani on a statement that we're investigating the Bidens so we can get that stuff they promised us."

    "Any reason we shouldn't?"

    "Well, a guy I know on their National Security council, Vindman, says we shouldn't get involved in that."

    "Who?"

    "Vindman. Army dude. Bunch of medals. He has a twin. Seems like a decent chap."

    That's absurd. And not how any of this works.

    If you back up to about page 158 or so, the more complete picture of the conversation emerges. He said that he was not a political operative, so he didn't know all the implications of the request for investigation, but it is good advice to stay out of American politics.

    Heck, more people should probably take that advice. ;)

    ETA:
    Also, to make clear, he wasn't talking to Zelenskiy, but his (Vindman's) counterpart Oksana Shulyar. (Page 160.)
     

    BugI02

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    What difference would it make? It isn't like this NSC dude had some insight into Trump. It isn't exactly rocket surgery.

    You're saying Zelenskiy is more likely to follow the advice of a functionary/analyst than listen to the various actual ambassadors and Trump himself? How would that briefing go?

    "President Zelenskiy, we have President Trump asking us to work with Rudy Guiliani on a statement that we're investigating the Bidens so we can get that stuff they promised us."

    "Any reason we shouldn't?"

    "Well, a guy I know on their National Security council, Vindman, says we shouldn't get involved in that."

    "Who?"

    "Vindman. Army dude. Bunch of medals. He has a twin. Seems like a decent chap."

    That's absurd. And not how any of this works.

    If you back up to about page 158 or so, the more complete picture of the conversation emerges. He said that he was not a political operative, so he didn't know all the implications of the request for investigation, but it is good advice to stay out of American politics.

    Heck, more people should probably take that advice. ;)

    ETA:
    Also, to make clear, he wasn't talking to Zelenskiy, but his (Vindman's) counterpart Oksana Shulyar. (Page 160.)

    I find it hilarious, as well as ludicrous, that the likelihood of Vindman's overreach achieving results is now your proposed standard for judging whether what he did was wrong (as well as indicative of, how does that go, "some indica of an arguable political bias"). Would that Trump would be held to the same 'standards'
     

    Alpo

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    "The president wants you to specifically target his opponents in a corruption investigation and announce that you are doing so to the world."

    "що?" "ваш президент - дебіл"
     
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