Judaism is a Nationality?

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  • Kutnupe14

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    I'm really really confused. What does this even mean?
    (CNN)President Donald Trump will sign an executive order on Wednesday to interpret Judaism as a nationality and not just a religion, a move that the Trump administration believes will fight what they perceive as anti-Semitism on college campuses, a White House official said.
    https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/10/poli...jyKualbCBFG5mi6cnYcNCMVHmj3bnHbnLN34t4Og_-Now

    IMHO, aside from groups who will potentially try an follow this path, this will do far more harm, than good, to the Jewish community. Anti-semitic types will certainly seize on the "you're not American, your a Jew." I don't see how essentially separating Jews from their American Heritage is a good thing; but I'm not Jewish, and one of my Jewish friends has already stated they support the measure. Anybody able to wrap their head around the logic better than I can?

    Oh, and for those who complain about protected classes, add one more to the mix.
     

    T.Lex

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    I believe it relates to the byzantine nature of anti-discrimination issues, particularly on the federal level.

    I'm not sure of the details (or the wisdom) of how this makes a difference, but I'm confident it does. It either makes it easier to prove discrimination, or is expected to be a deterrent to certain kinds of discrimination.

    Seeing as how, as I understand it, Israel offers citizenship to Jews from anywhere, I think there's a decent case that it could be a "nationality." However, as you point out, it lies uncomfortably close (for me) to the VERY old trope that Jews aren't loyal to whatever country they are from.

    But hey, everything old is new again.
     

    HoughMade

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    I believe it relates to the byzantine nature of anti-discrimination issues, particularly on the federal level.

    I'm not sure of the details (or the wisdom) of how this makes a difference, but I'm confident it does. It either makes it easier to prove discrimination, or is expected to be a deterrent to certain kinds of discrimination...

    It also deal with discrimination against non-religious people of Jewish descent.

    It is not illegal to discriminate against people based upon culture, but it is if the discrimination is based upon religion or nationality. What if you are a Jewish person who is an atheist? That's a pretty sizable group.

    I don't know about the wisdom of this either and have no position, but this is one of the issues they are attempting to address.
     

    Leadeye

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    While I've known Jewish people who said they weren't Israeli, I've never met a person from Israel that wasn't Jewish. It's a limited sampling of one man's life, but that's all the experience I have.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    It also deal with discrimination against non-religious people of Jewish descent.

    It is not illegal to discriminate against people based upon culture, but it is if the discrimination is based upon religion or nationality. What if you are a Jewish person who is an atheist? That's a pretty sizable group.

    I don't know about the wisdom of this either and have no position, but this is one of the issues they are attempting to address.

    You know that Dead Heads are about to jump on this right? But seriously, this seems like a slippery slope. Culture is now being added to protected groups?
     

    T.Lex

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    While I've known Jewish people who said they weren't Israeli, I've never met a person from Israel that wasn't Jewish. It's a limited sampling of one man's life, but that's all the experience I have.

    A long time ago I knew a girl whose Arab-Christian family had been... dispossessed of all they owned by the newly-formed (at the time) nation of Israel. Made it to the US without much by way of worldly possessions, but were happy to be here.

    It was interesting because they were certainly not anti-Jewish, but certainly were anti-Israel.
     
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    T.Lex

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    Ok, you're smarter than me, because I still don't understand. Can you dumb it down for me?

    I'm curious, too.

    I mean, I think your statement that "culture" is now a protected class is incorrect. Culture is not the same as nationality.

    But, if "Jewish" is now a nationality, I'm not sure how to differentiate that from "culture" or other self-identification class.

    Is a non-religious Jewish person really Jewish? As a Christian, my faith started out as a branch of Judaism. Am I now entitled to self-identify as Jewish?
     

    HoughMade

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    ...Is a non-religious Jewish person really Jewish? As a Christian, my faith started out as a branch of Judaism. Am I now entitled to self-identify as Jewish?

    Ben Shapiro would say "no".

    But generally speaking, most people who have thought about the issue would admit that being "Jewish" is a matter of ethnicity and religion, but not exclusive to either. Sure there are converts, but there's not that many.

    Is there a country somewhere that offers citizenship based upon being Christian alone?

    Believe it or not, there's a Wikipedia entry about atheist and agnostic Jewish people:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_atheists_and_agnostics

    This is a complex issue and they are trying to deal with it using present law which predictably results in muddled policy.

    So Carl Reiner would certainly describe himself os Jewish, but has stated that he is an atheist. Hitler would have been fine killing him and his family off and anti-semites will point to him "and his kind" as the "problem". His atheism does not insulate him and people in a similar position from hatred and discrimination, however, laws that apply to discrimination based upon religion really don't fit, because he has no religion.
     

    T.Lex

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    Hold up.

    I just read something that makes sense. This isn't what we think it is.

    This conflating of religion and nationality is a response to social activist conflating of religion and nationality. Some of you may be aware that there is an effort underway to force companies to Boycott/Divest/Sanction Israel for the issues in the West Bank and Gaza (among others). Ostensibly, it targets companies that support or derive income from Israel.

    So, in response, there is an anti-BDS movement to make it unlawful for certain organizations to support BDS groups.

    It appears that by making "Jewish" both a religious status and a nationality status (as opposed to "Israeli") it means that more entities that receive federal funds will have to prove that they aren't discriminating against companies that do business in or with Israel. Or Jews. I guess.

    I dunno. This whole thing is complicated.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    Hold up.

    I just read something that makes sense. This isn't what we think it is.

    This conflating of religion and nationality is a response to social activist conflating of religion and nationality. Some of you may be aware that there is an effort underway to force companies to Boycott/Divest/Sanction Israel for the issues in the West Bank and Gaza (among others). Ostensibly, it targets companies that support or derive income from Israel.

    So, in response, there is an anti-BDS movement to make it unlawful for certain organizations to support BDS groups.

    It appears that by making "Jewish" both a religious status and a nationality status (as opposed to "Israeli") it means that more entities that receive federal funds will have to prove that they aren't discriminating against companies that do business in or with Israel. Or Jews. I guess.

    I dunno. This whole thing is complicated.

    Well that's where this lost my potential support. Organizations outside of government should be able to BDS anyone they want, for any reason. And before anyone asks, yes, it should be that way for all.
     

    ArcadiaGP

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    Seeing this thread get created

    tenor.gif
     

    Snapdragon

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    That's kind of like trying to make Hispanic into a race. Years ago I did my masters' internship for a major health-oriented non-profit. One of my jobs was to pull the US census data into a report. I was to take the census data for Northern Indiana and categorize it under the following races: Caucasian, Negro, Hispanic, Asian, Hawaiian/Pacific island, Alaskan/Native American, and Other. Except the "race" of Hispanic did not exist because it refers to the language that someone speaks. Hispanics can be any race. The majority in this area are Caucasian, even though they themselves may not identify as 'white'. I advised my supervisor that they were asking the impossible, and I was told that the last intern didn't have a problem with it. When I refused to randomly assign people to the "Hispanic" race just because it was on the form, I lost a big chunk of my grade.
     
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    two70

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    Hold up.

    I just read something that makes sense. This isn't what we think it is.

    This conflating of religion and nationality is a response to social activist conflating of religion and nationality. Some of you may be aware that there is an effort underway to force companies to Boycott/Divest/Sanction Israel for the issues in the West Bank and Gaza (among others). Ostensibly, it targets companies that support or derive income from Israel.

    So, in response, there is an anti-BDS movement to make it unlawful for certain organizations to support BDS groups.

    It appears that by making "Jewish" both a religious status and a nationality status (as opposed to "Israeli") it means that more entities that receive federal funds will have to prove that they aren't discriminating against companies that do business in or with Israel. Or Jews. I guess.

    I dunno. This whole thing is complicated.

    Exactly.

    Well that's where this lost my potential support. Organizations outside of government should be able to BDS anyone they want, for any reason. And before anyone asks, yes, it should be that way for all.

    The BDS movement is primarily found on college campuses and most colleges and universities accept government funding. Hence the move.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    Exactly.



    The BDS movement is primarily found on college campuses and most colleges and universities accept government funding. Hence the move.

    I would view any state supported college/university as an arm of the govt, so in that regard, it would be ok. However, if it extends beyond that, to private entities, I have an issue.
     

    two70

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    I would agree, though I would point out that the problem would not be the change to designate Judaism as a nationality but in the underlying anti-discrimination laws.
     

    Alamo

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    The EO is now out and as usual turns out NYT and CNN were in completely in bat**** gibbering TDS mode, and once again prove Trump is correct to label them fake news..

    A quote from Salon, not exactly a hotbed of Trumpers:

    The New York Times’ reporting provoked angeramong many Jews, who feared that an order to “effectively interpret Judaism as a race or nationality” would stoke anti-Semitism. But the order does no such thing. It restates the federal government’s long-standing interpretation of Title VI to encompass some anti-Jewish bias.


    https://hotair.com/archives/john-s-...trumps-executive-order-caused-freakout-wrong/
     

    Tactically Fat

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    A long time ago I knew a girl whose Arab-Christian family had been... dispossessed of all they owned by the newly-formed (at the time) nation of Israel. Made it to the US without much by way of worldly possessions, but were happy to be here.

    It was interesting because they were certainly not anti-Jewish, but certainly were anti-Israel.

    Slight derail: I know of a family of Lebanese Christians who were essentially driven out of Lebanon during the Lebanese Civil War (I believe). They fled to Cyprus as political refugees. But because they fled with literally nothing - they don't have the documentation to get any kind of Cypriot citizenship - even though the family has been there for ages now. And no help from Lebanon, either, in that regard. And with no "papers" - it's next to impossible to find gainful employment.

    Somehow, however, despite this, one of their sons managed to get himself to a University in Cyprus. That university has a close working relationship with UIndy. He came to UIndy for a year abroad and somehow found out about a young adult ministry by a Southside church that several UIndy students were a part of. In short - he met and began dating a US Citizen. They eventually got married - and she was prepared to essentially give up hope of staying in America due to his VISA issues once he graduated (managed to finagle his year abroad into graduating from UIndy).

    Apparently being married, in a real marriage to an American, has helped him out a bit, though. After a handful of years in Cyprus, I believe that they're back in the USA. It also wouldn't surprise me if he's not on his way to becoming a USA-ian.

    So that's my aside.
     
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