Virginia Police Officer Arrested for Using Taser on Black Man

[Route 45]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/virginia-officer-arrested-after-using-stun-gun-on-black-man

So...I wonder how incoherent, ranting people (regardless of melanin content) who are an obvious danger to themselves and others will be handled after we abolish the police.

I think the Taser is actually the best choice for use of force here. It's immediately obvious that you're not going to talk this guy down. He's either high as a kite or bat**** insane. Either way, going "hands on" alone is a recipe for more serious injury (for everyone involved) vs. incapacitation with the Taser, then handcuffing.

They actually arrested this officer. This is ****ing ridiculous. If I was an officer, I'd be goddamned if I lifted a finger to do anything more than the absolute bare minimum in this climate.

Here is the video:

[video=youtube;MjFEDlTCKGE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=300&v=MjFEDlTCKGE&feature=emb_ logo[/video]

 

[DMTJAGER]

This may be exactly what they want, but I predict the more liberal communities turn against and openly prosecute police the more and more the police will do less and less. In my opinion if the situation degrades to the point that as a officer actually doing your job by the letter of department SOP or any time you use any measure of force on a black person will get you arrested and can potentially ruin your career and possibly your life, I just don't see how police officers will have little choice but completely stop all interactions with all minorities especially make arrests. And arrest or interact only with whites.

If I were a police officer and I worked in a department were I felt my bosses would have me arrested for doing my actual job I would never again even give a minority a speeding ticket let alone arrest one. This will cripple policing of high crime neighborhoods and the drug gangs will literally take complete control. They will essentially become de facto rulers of entire neighborhoods and possibly entire cities.

I think it's time for every police officer in every city that is turning against them like LA, Sacramento, NYC etc, to bvand together and get the blue flew for two or three straight days. Beginning on a Friday about 8pm untill 8am Monday, and pick a weekend where the temps will be consistently above 90*. Then lets see how much they are no longer needed.

Can you imagine Chicago's or LA's worst areas with no police presence for an entire weekend of 90+* days? Heck it might be that way in LA anyhow as the thier mayor just announced they are going to cut the LAPD's budget by $125 million dollars. I don't see how you cut a police Dept by $125 million dollars and not have to eliminate a considerable number of police officers mostly street cops I imagine as they would have the least seniority and be the most likely to be let go.

 

[jsharmon7]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/virginia-officer-arrested-after-using-stun-gun-on-black-man

I think the Taser is actually the best choice for use of force here. It's immediately obvious that you're not going to talk this guy down. He's either high as a kite or bat**** insane. Either way, going "hands on" alone is a recipe for more serious injury (for everyone involved) vs. incapacitation with the Taser, then handcuffing.

I disagree that this was a good deployment.

 

[Route 45]

I disagree that this was a good deployment.

Explain.

 

[rob63]

Either way, going "hands on" alone is a recipe for more serious injury (for everyone involved) vs. incapacitation with the Taser, then handcuffing.

The officer was already "hands on" when he used the taser the 2nd time. He is sitting on top of him with the taser placed into the back of the guy's neck when he fires it, about 3:10 in the video. It also doesn't appear to me that it actually helped the situation, the guy only gets more enraged and the officer requires more assistance.

I doubt he was arrested for the initial use of the taser, it was the second one described above that got him into trouble.

 

[jamil]

This didn’t look to me like it was the right way to handle this. Also, I’d like to see the outcome of the proposed new “peace force” handling these kinds of encounters. Exactly what would the sjw squad have done to bring about a better outcome?

I think what we need is something between, keep tasing until he gives up, and what they’re proposing.

 

[jsx1043]

This video perfectly illustrates one of the many services lumped into law enforcement duties: dealing with emotionally disturbed persons (EDPs). Since the closures of the psychiatric institutions, EDPs have become more commonplace in society. While separating the wheat from the chaff of criminal vs. non-criminal behaviors of EDPs, LE has become the new wranglers for both situations. While EDPs engaged in criminal or dangerous activities (to themselves or threatening others) is a LE matter, folks who do not pose a threat are another matter. While we undergo extensive training (shocker, right?) to try and work with folks to get them help, there aren’t many options on how to do so in a perfect manner.

Case in point: Just last night (I literally got off shift at 0700) I had an EDP. I happened across an elderly man who, at first glance appeared to be out for gingerly-paced walk, but I noticed that he had soiled himself. I gave him a little bit of distance to see if he was going to return to the house (as some elderly dementia patients do) but he made it over to the next street and his behavior became more confused and he stopped in the middle of a bridge into the neighborhood. I pulled up and spoke with him and he gave me his name. I asked if he was okay and he stated he was fine. I asked him again if he felt okay and pointed out that it looks like he might be sick because he had soiled himself. He said “Hell, I’m old” and laughed. I asked the marker questions of lucidity:

-“Do you know what year it is?” He couldn’t answer.

-“Do you know who the President is?” (To my amusement, he replied, “the a-hole.” (Could go either way, honestly.)

-“What is your address?” Quick reply, solid information.

-“Is there anybody at home I can call to come pick you up?”

This last one is where it starts to get a little dicey. His first response was that his wife was home with her mother (given his age, it was highly unlikely that his wife’s mother was still alive, albeit possible). Then he replied that he didn’t think it would be necessary and became a tiny bit defensive. Understandable, obviously, because he had some faculties and was most likely embarrassed. But I was still concerned for his health and well-being, and at this point, a judgment has to be made as to best how to serve him and get him the help he needed:

1. Continue to talk with him and elicit contact information (which was the course of action

or

2. Talk to him and establish a medical need and get him an ambulance and a medical hold.

Luckily #1 was working and he had an address, so I could cross reference that and get a phone number. (IF that did not work, I would have to move on to #2.) As luck would have it, his daughter pulled up in a car at that moment and picked him up, informing us that he had walked out of the house and disappeared.

The rub comes in with #2. It becomes a judgment call when we have to establish just exactly how a person can be served for their medical needs. Obviously we get medical personnel involved, but we have to go through training and a decision-making matrix to determine if a person is in such a condition that they were in medical danger or presented a danger to themselves or others. In my heart, I know this gentleman was not a threat to others, but his partial grip on his faculties placed him in a position of danger to himself, in addition to soiling himself, which indicated other medical concerns.

So, all this being said, what is our main concern from the LE perspective? Our job is to help and protect people, in some cases from themselves. It’s a duty that’s important, and not one to be taken lightly. We have to walk a fine line of social worker, mental health professional, peace officer, yada yada yada...

In the case of the OP video, we have to look at all of the circumstances. Just taking it at face value, without knowing any history or dispatch information (threats, violent behavior, etc.) it appears that this man is an EDP and at this captured moment, is he presenting as a threat to himself or others? By his erratic behavior in the street, possibly, but it appears that the street has been blocked off. It doesn’t appear that he has any weapons, or is making any threatening motions. Situations like these are a very tough call because we can obviously see that the person is in need of medical help and the medical staff on scene are in agreement that he does, hence them trying to get him into the ambulance.

As for the deployment of the taser, I don’t think it was the correct call based on the information at hand, but I am not privy to all
of their information. I did hear one of the officers ask if he had a warrant, which in and of itself is another matter, but the use of the taser for the initial detention doesn’t APPEAR to be the right course of action.

With that in mind, there aren’t any other options in between for addressing EDPs. No fast response mental health workers, no database with emergency contact info (which doesn’t help with tweakers anyway), no way of “politely” placing someone on an Immediate Detention except if they want to.

 

[drillsgt]

Those strong little wiry guys are the worst. I didn't see anything wrong with it, the taser was actually pretty ineffective and he realized it too and quit using it. It looks like the guy was no worse for wear and his 'I can't breathe' training kicked in. If police are getting arrested for this it's going to be a hard road for LE.

 

[Leadeye]

I wonder how long it will be before we see suspects beating down an officer while screaming "I can't breath".

Sort of like the inverse of "stop resisting".

 

[jamil]

Those strong little wiry guys are the worst. I didn't see anything wrong with it, the taser was actually pretty ineffective and he realized it too and quit using it. It looks like the guy was no worse for wear and his 'I can't breathe' training kicked in. If police are getting arrested for this it's going to be a hard road for LE.

While it does not look to me (just as a citizen onlooker) that it should have been necessary to tase him. But it also doesn't look to me that it was a carriage of justice to arrest him.

 

[Ark]

I think the logical end result of prosecutions like this is that police will either exit the profession or simply stop responding to EDP calls involving people of the wrong color. They will come around the corner, see a black male freaking out in the street, and put the cruiser in reverse and find something else to do. They won't take calls in the black neighborhoods. They won't respond to violent demonstrators or looting. Who among us would continue doing a job, knowing that doing it correctly involves an extremely high chance of your life ending with six inmates holding you down while a seventh rams a sharpened toothbrush into your throat? Policing is a JOB. Nobody is willing to die or go to jail for a job. They'll just stop doing it.

 

[jsharmon7]

Explain.

It sounds like an assist EMS call that turns into either an immediate detention or possibly someone with a warrant. From the time the first officer approached the male until the time the second officer deploys the Taser is only about two and a half minutes. He isn’t holding a weapon, he doesn’t make threats, he doesn’t act violently, and doesn’t appear to be a suspect in any crime. The first officer is trying to talk to him. The second officer walks right up, says “get on the ground Anthony,” and deploys the Taser. The only verbal command given was “get on the ground Anthony,” but no time to comply was allowed. The officer also didn’t give him any warning of Taser deployment. I doubt any policy allows for an officer to walk up and say, “get on the ground, ZAP” when a person is just walking around in circles in an empty street.

Now, the second officer seems to know him, so maybe there is a history. Maybe he has done this before and becomes extremely violent. From just that video, I can’t say that appeared to be a good deployment. If there is more to it, then maybe it was justified. Criminal? I won’t go that far.

 

[Route 45]

It sounds like an assist EMS call that turns into either an immediate detention or possibly someone with a warrant. From the time the first officer approached the male until the time the second officer deploys the Taser is only about two and a half minutes. He isn’t holding a weapon, he doesn’t make threats, he doesn’t act violently, and doesn’t appear to be a suspect in any crime. The first officer is trying to talk to him. The second officer walks right up, says “get on the ground Anthony,” and deploys the Taser. The only verbal command given was “get on the ground Anthony,” but no time to comply was allowed. The officer also didn’t give him any warning of Taser deployment. I doubt any policy allows for an officer to walk up and say, “get on the ground, ZAP” when a person is just walking around in circles in an empty street.

Now, the second officer seems to know him, so maybe there is a history. Maybe he has done this before and becomes extremely violent. From just that video, I can’t say that appeared to be a good deployment. If there is more to it, then maybe it was justified. Criminal? I won’t go that far.

We don't have backstory or context, and perhaps the officer was a bit quick on the zappy-gun trigger. But to charge the officer with an actual crime in this instance is ****ing insane. If anything, he was a notch too high on the force continuum. Maybe a bit more sweet talking was in order, but it didn't seem to be doing any good up to the point of Taser deployment. If talking is doing no good with an EDP, I'd argue that the Taser is more reasonable than attempted hands-on, given the increased strength and pain tolerance shown by some EDPs.

 

[Denny347]

Courts are pretty consistently ruling that Taser deployments are a higher level of force than going hands on. Taser involves an object penetrating the body and introducing electricity. You will likely need active resistance to justify it's use.

 

[Route 45]

Courts are pretty consistently ruling that Taser deployments are a higher level of force than going hands on. Taser involves an object penetrating the body and introducing electricity. You will likely need active resistance to justify it's use.

Hands-on with an EDP is extremely dangerous. If the courts really feel that way now, I suppose one could try 3 seconds of soft empty hand control before hitting the lightning switch.

 

[Denny347]

Hands-on with an EDP is extremely dangerous. If the courts really feel that way now, I suppose one could try 3 seconds of soft empty hand control before hitting the lightning switch.

Depending on how well you can explain it's preemptive use on a EDP and the specific details to support that use, it is possible to be justified. However, with 2 officers on the scene, at least ONE should try to go hands on with the other on standby with a Taser. Also, drive-stuns are virtually worthless and are only good for completing a circuit and not pain compliance.

 

[hpclayto]

I can't wait for social workers to start taking my runs. I'll just hang out on station and sleep and play x box like the hosedraggers do!

 

[Hoosierkav]

I would have liked to see some coordination between EMS and PD before going hands/electricity-on. Having a patient crash onto the pavement isn't exactly a benign situation, either.

JSX is spot-on with the comments. These calls are difficult and it's the gray zone that PD has to work within--it's public safety, not law enforcement, but PD are the ones who can detain a person and move them unwillingly--EMS cannot. But, it's these types of calls that demand PD and EMS to have a fantastic relationship so things go smoothly. PD needs to defer to EMS for the medical aspects, and EMS needs to defer to PD for the force continuum.

 

[Denny347]

I would have liked to see some coordination between EMS and PD before going hands/electricity-on. Having a patient crash onto the pavement isn't exactly a benign situation, either.

JSX is spot-on with the comments. These calls are difficult and it's the gray zone that PD has to work within--it's public safety, not law enforcement, but PD are the ones who can detain a person and move them unwillingly--EMS cannot. But, it's these types of calls that demand PD and EMS to have a fantastic relationship so things go smoothly. PD needs to defer to EMS for the medical aspects, and EMS needs to defer to PD for the force continuum.

I'm with you in ALL except the illegal part in red ...

 

[2A_Tom]

This video perfectly illustrates one of the many services lumped into law enforcement duties: dealing with emotionally disturbed persons (EDPs). Since the closures of the psychiatric institutions, EDPs have become more commonplace in society. While separating the wheat from the chaff of criminal vs. non-criminal behaviors of EDPs, LE has become the new wranglers for both situations. While EDPs engaged in criminal or dangerous activities (to themselves or threatening others) is a LE matter, folks who do not pose a threat are another matter. While we undergo extensive training (shocker, right?) to try and work with folks to get them help, there aren’t many options on how to do so in a perfect manner.

Case in point: Just last night (I literally got off shift at 0700) I had an EDP. I happened across an elderly man who, at first glance appeared to be out for gingerly-paced walk, but I noticed that he had soiled himself. I gave him a little bit of distance to see if he was going to return to the house (as some elderly dementia patients do) but he made it over to the next street and his behavior became more confused and he stopped in the middle of a bridge into the neighborhood. I pulled up and spoke with him and he gave me his name. I asked if he was okay and he stated he was fine. I asked him again if he felt okay and pointed out that it looks like he might be sick because he had soiled himself. He said “Hell, I’m old” and laughed. I asked the marker questions of lucidity:

-“Do you know what year it is?” He couldn’t answer.

-“Do you know who the President is?” (To my amusement, he replied, “the a-hole.” (Could go either way, honestly.)

-“What is your address?” Quick reply, solid information.

-“Is there anybody at home I can call to come pick you up?”

This last one is where it starts to get a little dicey. His first response was that his wife was home with her mother (given his age, it was highly unlikely that his wife’s mother was still alive, albeit possible). Then he replied that he didn’t think it would be necessary and became a tiny bit defensive. Understandable, obviously, because he had some faculties and was most likely embarrassed. But I was still concerned for his health and well-being, and at this point, a judgment has to be made as to best how to serve him and get him the help he needed:

1. Continue to talk with him and elicit contact information (which was the course of action

or

2. Talk to him and establish a medical need and get him an ambulance and a medical hold.

Luckily #1 was working and he had an address, so I could cross reference that and get a phone number. (IF that did not work, I would have to move on to #2.) As luck would have it, his daughter pulled up in a car at that moment and picked him up, informing us that he had walked out of the house and disappeared.

The rub comes in with #2. It becomes a judgment call when we have to establish just exactly how a person can be served for their medical needs. Obviously we get medical personnel involved, but we have to go through training and a decision-making matrix to determine if a person is in such a condition that they were in medical danger or presented a danger to themselves or others. In my heart, I know this gentleman was not a threat to others, but his partial grip on his faculties placed him in a position of danger to himself, in addition to soiling himself, which indicated other medical concerns.

So, all this being said, what is our main concern from the LE perspective? Our job is to help and protect people, in some cases from themselves. It’s a duty that’s important, and not one to be taken lightly. We have to walk a fine line of social worker, mental health professional, peace officer, yada yada yada...

In the case of the OP video, we have to look at all of the circumstances. Just taking it at face value, without knowing any history or dispatch information (threats, violent behavior, etc.) it appears that this man is an EDP and at this captured moment, is he presenting as a threat to himself or others? By his erratic behavior in the street, possibly, but it appears that the street has been blocked off. It doesn’t appear that he has any weapons, or is making any threatening motions. Situations like these are a very tough call because we can obviously see that the person is in need of medical help and the medical staff on scene are in agreement that he does, hence them trying to get him into the ambulance.

As for the deployment of the taser, I don’t think it was the correct call based on the information at hand, but I am not privy to all
of their information. I did hear one of the officers ask if he had a warrant, which in and of itself is another matter, but the use of the taser for the initial detention doesn’t APPEAR to be the right course of action.

With that in mind, there aren’t any other options in between for addressing EDPs. No fast response mental health workers, no database with emergency contact info (which doesn’t help with tweakers anyway), no way of “politely” placing someone on an Immediate Detention except if they want to.

Thanks for the LE perspective.

I think the officer made a mistake, but should not have been arrested.