Libertarianism versus Conservatism

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  • The Meach

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    Long read but a good one; worth the five minutes.

    There are two ways to define 'libertarianism': philosophical and political. The philosophical definition refers to a theory of natural rights, which holds that it is necessarily wrong to interfere coercively with voluntary exchange and private acts. (There is another philosophical definition that refers to a belief about freedom of the will, which I do not address here.) The political definition refers to the ideology of small government, free markets, individual liberties, peace, toleration, and decentralization. Political libertarians need not be philosophical libertarians; for example, Milton Friedman is a utilitarian, conceding in principle that big government could be justified if it maximized social welfare, but arguing that in practice, free markets are best.


    There are some common misconceptions about both philosophical and political libertarianism. Neither variant requires that respecting others' rights be the sum of morality. Libertarians can, and usually do, maintain that people have obligations to be charitable to each other, although some of these obligations should not be enforced legally. Libertarianism also does not require treating children and adults the same. A libertarian could easily maintain that adults do not enjoy a positive right to provision and do enjoy a right to be left alone, even when they pursue self-destructive behaviors, but that children have both more and fewer rights than adults - more rights to positive provision (shelter, food, education), and fewer rights to be left alone (no right to buy or use drugs, for example). Libertarianism takes no position on abortion; like most Americans, libertarians are split on abortion because they are split on the question of whether and at what point fetuses enjoy rights.


    In my experience, many pro-life conservatives would consider themselves 'libertarian' were it not for the abortion issue. Once they learn that there are pro-life libertarians, they are happy calling themselves 'libertarians' rather than 'conservatives.' Many 'conservatives' realize that there are serious problems with their ideology, but do not realize that there is an alternative.


    The first problem with conservatism is that it has been hypocritical in power. Under unified Republican control of the federal government, discretionary non-defense federal spending has risen faster than it did under Clinton (and such spending actually fell under Reagan). Bush and his allies in Congress have:

    1) helped vitiate federalism through No Child Left Behind mandates
    2) imposed steel tariffs
    3) undertaken nation-building in Iraq
    4) created a new entitlement program (Medicare prescription drugs)
    5) helped protect incumbents and restrict free speech through campaign finance 'reform'
    6) increased agricultural subsidies
    7) expanded the role of the FCC in regulating 'decency'
    8) passed the 'Patriot Act,' which ends judicial review of certain kinds of federal subpoenas and criminalizes speech about such subpoenas.

    If one really believes in conservative principles, one should probably vote Democratic (or better, Libertarian) in federal elections.


    The second problem with modern conservatism is that it is internally incoherent. Modern conservatism comes out of the 1950's anticommunist movement. On the one hand, it proclaims respect for the Constitution and for the system of limited government devised by the Founders; on the other hand, it celebrates an aggressive U.S. foreign policy and a powerful bureaucracy that gives the federal government the resources to intervene, through aid or invasion, in any part of the world. The use of congressional 'authorizations of force,' rather than declarations of war, is a post-World War II innovation, not envisioned by the Constitution. The Constitution also does not explicitly sanction contributions to international lending agencies such as the IMF, foreign aid, and the use of IMF loans or foreign aid to strong-arm countries into accepting U.S. policy, nor does it authorize covert operations either to prop up or to topple leaders of different countries. Another quintessentially conservative policy, the War on Drugs, is not sanctioned by the Constitution. If alcohol prohibition required a constitutional amendment, so should drug prohibition. From a strict-constructionist standpoint, the Constitution does not authorize other conservative nostrums, such as federal aid to 'faith-based organizations.' You get the picture.


    Conservatives have two choices. Either they can admit that like their alleged adversaries on the left, they are essentially revolutionaries who would like to use the federal government as a tool to engineer society to their specifications, or they can admit that they do not wish to force society to conform to any particular pattern, that they do take constitutional strictures seriously, and that their guiding principle is respect for individual rights. If they take the latter course, they are really libertarians rather than conservatives, as that term is understood today.



    Dr. Jason Sorens


    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFDYqFzGVA"]YouTube - Brian Doherty - Conservatism vs. Libertarianism[/ame]
     

    matthock

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    Much of the disconnect within the republican party and conservatism seems to be related to the multiple and often very different ways people can be classified as conservative, and trying to lump them together into a single kind of representation. One is fiscal conservatives, and the other, the group most in control of the modern Republican party, is social conservatives. The Libertarian party really seems to be much more of a fit for the fiscal conservatives at the moment - the current aim of the Republican party seems to be purely enforcement of socially conservative values, although they're not doing a good job of even that, they mostly seem to be trying to screw with the Democrats as much as possible to get back into power. They're doing an incredibly bad job of representing small government people, and to make it worse, they're lying about it, still claiming to be the party of small government despite causing more growth in the deficit than the Democrats have.

    In case anyone can't tell, I'm pretty thoroughly ticked off at both the Democrats and the Republicans at the moment :)
     

    Fletch

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    I think that what sets libertarianism apart, philosophically speaking, can be summarized in one simple concept:

    The State is not an agent of sanctification.

    That is, no evil act can be made good by virtue of the fact that the actor acted as an agent of the State, and by extension "society".

    For example, if a person robs another person (absent any initiation of force or fraud on the other's behalf), he has committed an evil act, and it does not matter if he gives the money to the poor afterward. If that same person robs another under color of being an agent of the state, the act of robbery is still evil. The aura of the State does not change it to being a good or even morally neutral act.
     
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    The Meach

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    They're doing an incredibly bad job of representing small government people, and to make it worse, they're lying about it, still claiming to be the party of small government despite causing more growth in the deficit than the Democrats have

    That is pretty much the sum of it. I've gone through both Republican and Democratic phases and I'm tired of both sides Lying about their purpose.

    The Republicans keep touting themselves as agents of limited government, ect. But all they have done is try and Stick their nose in my personal life, tell me how to spend my money, take my money and give it to God-knows-who, Dictate what I'm allowed to do with my own body, and more or less be a totalitarian as possible.

    I'm a a proponent of both social and economic freedoms. I'm feed up with the crap from both parties and their ongoing rhetoric of stastism.

    statism-vs-libertarianism.jpg



    The State is not an agent of sanctification.

    ▲▲▲ THIS!!!!
     
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    Paco Bedejo

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    This is the way I've taken to explaining the differences:

    Social Liberal, Fiscal Liberal - "Do what you want, but give me all of your money"
    Example: Democratic Party® (though limitations on Social Liberalism)

    Social Liberal, Fiscal Conservative
    - "Do what you want & leave my money alone"
    Example: libertarians, to a high degree & anarchists

    Social Conservative, Fiscal Liberal - "Do as I say & give me all of your money"
    Example: Republican Party Neocons/RINOs & most dictatorships

    Social Conservative, Fiscal Conservative
    - "Do as I say, but leave my money alone"
    Example: Traditional Republican Party®

    Good thread Meach. It's further explanation of why libertarians won't vote Republican® to get the 'evil' Democrats® out of office. We view them as two captains of the same cruise ship who've both agreed on the final destination. They merely bicker about the route & the shipboard rules & entertainment.
     

    mettle

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    I think that what sets libertarianism apart, philosophically speaking, can be summarized in one simple concept:

    The State is not an agent of sanctification.

    That is, no evil act can be made good by virtue of the fact that the actor acted as an agent of the State, and by extension "society".

    For example, if a person robs another person (absent any initiation of force or fraud on the other's behalf), he has committed an evil act, and it does not matter if he gives the money to the poor afterward. If that same person robs another under color of being an agent of the state, the act of robbery is still evil. The aura of the State does not change it to being a good or even morally neutral act.


    Another spin on this sentence: When a fool does something stupid, he will always say it was his duty...
     

    The Meach

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    This is the way I've taken to explaining the differences:

    Social Liberal, Fiscal Liberal - "Do what you want, but give me all of your money"
    Example: Democratic Party® (though limitations on Social Liberalism)

    Social Liberal, Fiscal Conservative
    - "Do what you want & leave my money alone"
    Example: libertarians, to a high degree & anarchists

    Social Conservative, Fiscal Liberal - "Do as I say & give me all of your money"
    Example: Republican Party Neocons/RINOs & most dictatorships

    Social Conservative, Fiscal Conservative
    - "Do as I say, but leave my money alone"
    Example: Traditional Republican Party®

    I like this, mind if i steal it? lol
     

    rambone

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    The first problem with conservatism is that it has been hypocritical in power. Under unified Republican control of the federal government, discretionary non-defense federal spending has risen faster than it did under Clinton (and such spending actually fell under Reagan). Bush and his allies in Congress have:

    1) helped vitiate federalism through No Child Left Behind mandates
    2) imposed steel tariffs
    3) undertaken nation-building in Iraq
    4) created a new entitlement program (Medicare prescription drugs)
    5) helped protect incumbents and restrict free speech through campaign finance 'reform'
    6) increased agricultural subsidies
    7) expanded the role of the FCC in regulating 'decency'
    8) passed the 'Patriot Act,' which ends judicial review of certain kinds of federal subpoenas and criminalizes speech about such subpoenas.

    It's unfortunate that the author has tried to paint George W Bush as a model conservative.
     

    dburkhead

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    Another spin on this sentence: When a fool does something stupid, he will always say it was his duty...

    The version I have seen is "when a stupid man does something he knows is wrong, he will always say it is his duty."

    The problem with fools doing stupid things is that they don't know they are doing stupid things.
     

    dburkhead

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    It's unfortunate that the author has tried to paint George W Bush as a model conservative.

    Bush was a "neocon." What too many people forget is that "neocon" does not mean "super conservative" or anything like that, but rather it means a liberal who takes on some of the trappings, and a few of the talking points, of conservatism so that they could, hopefully, get the support of conservative voters.

    For the most part, Bush's main virtue is that he's almost certainly better than Gore or Kerry would have been.
     

    dburkhead

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    Like it or not he was the conservative movements poster child for 8 loooong years, whether he was "conservative" enough or not. Conservatives chose poorly.

    The only people who painted Bush as a conservative was the left and the liberal media (I know "liberal media" is redundant--consider it repetition for emphasis).

    Conservatives didn't choose Bush. That he was chosen as Republican Presidential candidate (and then that McCain was chosen after him) merely goes to underscore that the Presidential primary system is broken. Mind you, I'm not sure how to go about fixing or replacing it, but it is definitely broken.
     

    mettle

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    The version I have seen is "when a stupid man does something he knows is wrong, he will always say it is his duty."

    The problem with fools doing stupid things is that they don't know they are doing stupid things.

    Ah, yes, but, fools can also be labeled such b/c they deliberately choose the wrong, b/c it's easier and more convenient-- or profitable-- depending on their aspirations.
     
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