The differences between a "conservative" and a "libertarian"

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  • rambone

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    I saw a little discussion about this and realized that not everyone is that familiar with the differences between these two brands of political thinking. I thought this would be a worthwhile discussion to have here.

    This group contains a wide variety of people, both Conservatives and Libertarians, and perhaps others. The Left will try to divide us and conquer us. We must be aware of this and do our best to stay united in opposition of Government growth. The petty differences must not divide us, since Socialism and bankrupting the country is far more dangerous than any other issue.


    First of all, the definitions of these terms will vary wildly, depending on who is doing the talking. Remember that not everyone who brands themselves as one thing, truly lives according to their self-declared principles.

    I will attempt to define the applicable terms necessary to understand these various concepts, and try to touch on a variety of different topics where Libertarians and Conservatives are the same and different. Feel free to chime in if you feel I have misrepresented something. I personally hold a lot of mix of the two, with a tendency to lean toward the Libertarian side.





    General Terms and Concepts

    Right-wing = minimal government, Left-wing = maximum government. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MW6AKVyi6As"](Further explanation...)[/ame]

    Conservatism and libertarianism are two Right-leaning political stances. Liberalism, Progressivism, and Socialism are Left-leaning stances.

    Libertarians should not be confused with today's liberals. They are very different on the most important issues, namely on the issue of what the acceptable size of Government should be.

    Be aware of the differences when people say "classic liberal" or "modern liberal." The definition of "liberal" has changed over time. In the old-days, a liberal was someone who wanted less governance, such as Thomas Jefferson. Today, a liberal is someone who wants government to control everything, such as Barack Obama. The two could not be any further from each other. Modern-day libertarians are the equivalent to "classic liberals."

    To summarize Libertarianism, the key point to remember is that they support the least amount of government possible to live in a free and peaceful society. They believe in very strict adherence to the constitution. They support ultra-minimal taxation and as few regulations and laws as possible. They support as much freedom as possible, short of infringing on someone else's rights.

    It is possible to identify with aspects of both ideologies. They are similar in many ways.


    On Parties

    Conservatives generally admire figures such as Ronald Reagan. They tend to believe in revitalizing the Republican party with new conservatives, replacing the moderate and progressive Republicans who support big-spending and big-government.

    Libertarians generally admire someone like Barry Goldwater or Ron Paul. Some libertarians choose to vote for Republicans, due to lack of better plausible options. Some libertarians choose to vote for Independent candidates that better suit their views.

    Not all Republicans are conservative. Not all conservatives are Republicans.

    The Democrat party rarely provides a home for conservatives and libertarians.


    On Spending

    True conservatives and libertarians should be very similar on the issue of financial responsibility. They both believe in being very thrifty with tax dollars, and using them for only constitutional purposes.

    False-conservatives set spending records.


    On States' vs Federal Powers

    True Conservatives and Libertarians generally share the strict belief that the Federal Government has no business regulating things that the states ought to handle themselves. The 10th Amendment of the Constitution guarantees that States have the right to trump Federal infringements (in theory). This issue spills over into many, many other issues.


    On Government Agencies

    A strict Libertarian believes that most Government agencies and bureaucracies (BATF, DEA, TSA, DHS, CIA, etc) are unconstitutional, and on those grounds reject their existence. Their belief in States' rights and low taxes causes them to believe that these agencies should either exist on a State-by-State level, or not at all.

    Conservatives vary on this issue. Many share the sentiment that these agencies are unnecessary. Some accept that some of these Federal agencies should exist, but would support trimming them back, as well as the breadth of their powers. False-Conservatives grow these agencies and create new ones.


    On Gun Laws

    A strict Libertarian believes that the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution guarantees that citizens have the unlimited, uninfringed right to own and carry any conventional weapon available to the military. They understand that the Founders included this amendment, because they themselves had to fight off Government tyranny. The citizens deserve to have a fair fight if it should ever come to that again. Therefore all gun-control is strictly unconstitutional. Automatic weapons, silencers, handgun-carry licenses, "assault-weapons", and even barrel shrouds have no business being regulated by the Government, period. Their belief in low taxes causes them to believe that the BATF does nothing but chase around people for owning arbitrary objects and should be eliminated.

    Of course, libertarians believe all people should be held accountable for your actions, so no, they do not view this as a society full of people shooting each other. They view it as a return to the society that our grandparents knew.

    Most Conservatives hold the 2nd Amendment in high regard, and would support the repeal of any gun-control law. Some Conservatives would support repealing the Federal gun-control laws and allow states to regulate such things on their own. Some are in total agreement with the libertarian stance. Some simply choose their battles and choose to support the current gun laws, but no more. Very few "conservatives" will claim that the 2nd Amendment has not been infringed.


    On Capital Punishment

    A strict libertarian sees the Government as too inept to cast a final judgment on another human being. Their fear of Government oppression causes them to reject the concept of allowing Government to kill anyone, ever.

    Conservatives vary on this issue. Some support what is written above. Some see no harm in allowing the justice system to issue a Death Penalty to someone who has been found guilty of a severe enough crime.


    On Drug Prohibition

    Libertarians believe that prohibiting drugs has been as much of an abject failure as prohibiting alcohol in the early 20th century. Prohibiting alcohol allowed for black markets to rise up, gave a reason for organized crime to gain power, was followed by an increased murder rate, caused people to attempt to create their own (often dangerous) homemade booze, and did not stop anyone from drinking. Drug prohibition has followed the same pattern.

    Libertarians see no reason that the Government should have any business banning arbitrary plants and chemicals. Their belief in States' rights tells them that if anyone should deal with this issue, it should be done on a State-by-State basis. Their belief in low taxes causes them to believe that agencies such as the DEA should be eliminated. This does not make Libertarians supportive of drug use, it means they reject unnecessary excuses to tax us.

    Conservatives rarely take a stand against the War On Drugs. They view it as a Liberal vs. Conservative issue, which is simply not true. It is a Government vs Citizen issue.


    On Abortion

    If I had to categorize Libertarians on abortion, I think you would find that most of them reject additional regulations, and would therefore be more supportive of being pro-choice.

    Conservatives are much more often pro-life, citing that each American has a right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. Their view is that regulating abortion is an acceptable role of Government.

    Generally either of these groups can accept and realize that the 10th Amendment was ignored on the judgment of Roe v. Wade. States should have been reserved the right to decide individually on abortion. It was not a place for the Federal Government to intervene.


    On Education

    Libertarians reject the idea of the State educating our children. They believe it should be done entirely by private institutions, churches, charities, or by the parents themselves, or homeschool-networks.

    Conservatives vary on the issue of course. Some agree with the above stance. Some believe that it should be done on a State-level instead of a Federal-level. Some accept the Department of Education but insist that it be trimmed back.


    On Welfare

    Strict libertarians believe that all welfare is unconstitutional. The Preamble says "promote the general welfare," not "control" or "provide for the general welfare of people." Therefore the libertarian stance is that welfare is not a legitimate role of government. A libertarian views welfare as a role of charities, churches, families, and private institutions. For the purposes of debate, however, if any body of Government is to implement social welfare programs, it should done on a State-level or local-level, never by the Federal Government.

    Conservatives for the most part do not differ from libertarians on this issue. The "War On Poverty," Social Security, etc, have all been expensive, extravagant promises made to people that are unsustainable. These Government promises create a populace that depends on Government, and therefore these programs have been an essential part of bringing our country to this point of near-bankruptcy and electing socialist leaders.


    On Health Care

    Conservatives and Libertarians are in agreement that Government-run health care is unsustainable and unconstitutional. A small minority argue that it may be tried on a State-level only, but still is not a good idea.


    On Marriage

    A libertarian stance on marriage that I have often heard is that they would remove the Government entirely from the concept of marriage. "Marriage" is a term best left to those associated with a church. Those who wish for the legal rights granted between two people by the state would instead unite under a contract known as a "Civil Union." Any two adults could be free to sign such an agreement. The Government would thereby satisfy same-sex partners regarding legal issues and property rights, as well as those concerned about the religious implications of redefining "marriage." Civil unions in the eyes of the law, marriage in the eyes of the church.

    Conservatives may come around to that stance if they are exposed to it. But generally they agree with state-defined "marriage" and prefer it to stay in the traditional sense.


    On Terrorism

    Ben Franklin once said, "Those who would sacrifice their essential liberties for security, deserve neither liberty or security." Truer words never have been spoken in regards to giving up our liberties. Each time the government grows, they tell us it is for our own good. Whether it be Government health-care, airline security, DUI checkpoints, etc. We have allowed our Government to infringe on certain liberties in order for us to "feel" safer.

    Libertarians fear that the Government may actually use terrorist "crises" as an excuse to grow and create new agencies, used to stop domestic terrorism. They believe that armed citizens would do better to stop armed terrorists on American soil, or in the air. They believe that airline security would be better suited for airlines to carry out themselves, without the forced aid of the unconstitutional TSA. They fear that one day terrorists will turn to bombing buses and trains and that Americans will have to subject themselves to forced searches from TSA agents in the streets of America. This is in direct opposition to the 4th Amendment of the Constitution.

    Libertarians also fear that allowing the Government to take away the Constitutional rights of certain citizens is far more dangerous to the country than any number of terrorists. Libertarians stand up for constitutional rights of all citizens, despite the crime that the government accuses them of (namely, "terrorism"). They do not want the precedent to be set for having the Government pick and choose who gets a speedy trial by jury, something guaranteed in the Bill of Rights. They stand in opposition to the Government who favors taking away constitutional rights from any American citizen.

    Conservatives believe in strong national defense, and have historically come down hard on those accused of terrorism. Their method of choice for dealing with accused terrorists is to send them to Military Tribunals and deal with them that way. The existence of the TSA and DHS is a debatable subject for most conservatives.


    On War

    Libertarians are typically opposed to using the military for any purpose other than directly defending the homeland. They emphasize that Congress must be the one to officially declare "war," and we must reverse the trend from allowing one man - the President - from deploying this nation's troops without any checks or balances. They disapprove of nearly all foreign wars, such as Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, & Korea. Libertarians often cite George Washington's quote about avoiding foreign entanglements such as alliances, in order to avoid war.

    Conservatives would agree that we must adhere to the constitutional provision that war must be declared by Congress, not unofficial conflicts recommended by the President. However, those who have labeled themselves "Conservative" have typically held the stance of standing up for America's allies in their time of need, and oppose international tyranny when it starts. This is a source of heated debate, amongst all sides.


    On Foreign Aid

    Libertarians generally would hold the stance that no foreign aid is justifiable in the constitution. They believe that taxes should be minimal and therefore this purpose is not a legitimate function of Government. When another country is in need, international charities should collect private donations to give to those who need help. Volunteers should travel to the location and help.

    Conservatives are a little more accepting of providing assistance to countries friendly to America who are in crisis. Military and monetary resources are sometimes deemed acceptable contributions to those in need, in moderation and within reason.

    False-conservatives think it is feasible to rebuild an entire nation with our tax dollars.


    On International Affairs

    As mentioned before, Libertarians favor the stance of avoiding foreign entanglements at all costs.

    Conservatives have historically taken a more proactive stance, especially in regards for aiding countries in stopping their governments from being overtaken by communist dictators. Conservatives see it as an issue of avoiding future wars and civilian genocide, by taking a stance today. Conservatives favor having many allies around the world and assisting them in creating their own republics modeled after our own. Communist dictatorships have murdered many tens of millions of their own people over the 20th Century and conservatives have taken a stance to try and curb such international travesties. This stance is debatable depending on who you ask.
     
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    Panama

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    Makes sense to me, and I can relate and agree with 99% of it.
    Rep'd for nice post.
    Got to be some interesting comments to follow though.
    :popcorn:
     

    Ramen

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    Ooo, this thread should get really interesting! :popcorn::+1:



    It really all boils down to spending on National Defense and views on military action.

    Oh, and Libertarians really like the 4th, 5th, and 9th Amendments. A lot of "conservatives" tend to think that the 5th Amendment is only for criminals. :rolleyes: "Anything you say can and may be used AGAINST you".

    Just check the comments on any article where someone "plead the fifth."


    Siding with the ACLU is definitely not a "conservative" thing to do! I know the ACLU is quite anti-gun and loves abortion being a federal issue :facepalm:, but they tend to do a pretty good job fighting for the 4th and 5th Amendments.
     
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    antsi

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    To me the big distinction is; Is living a conservative life primarily a matter of personal choices for my home and family, or do I expect the government to create these conditions?

    We don't do drugs in my family (including alcohol, tobacco, and even caffiene). But I don't need, want, or expect the government to police my home to make this happen.

    We don't have pornographic movies or music with obscene lyrics in my home. Again, I don't expect the government to force this choice on everyone.

    We are Christians. We do a Nativity at Christmas, and have family prayers in all kinds of occasions. We have scripture quotes on our walls. Frankly it sickens me when I see government officials doing these things ostentatiously to promote their own popularity.

    To me, government imposing Christianity is the opposite of real faith and and spirituality. Government imposing conservative principles is the opposite of personal responsibility.

    If you're a real, consistent, small government conservative, I will probably agree with you on 99% of issues. Too many conservatives, though, are not.
     

    Will0369

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    Well I guess I have truly found out which side of the spectrum I am on. Thank you for the truly informative and well thought out presentation on Conservatism V. Libertarianism.
     

    Ramen

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    To me the big distinction is; Is living a conservative life primarily a matter of personal choices for my home and family, or do I expect the government to create these conditions?

    We don't do drugs in my family (including alcohol, tobacco, and even caffiene). But I don't need, want, or expect the government to police my home to make this happen.

    We don't have pornographic movies or music with obscene lyrics in my home. Again, I don't expect the government to force this choice on everyone.

    We are Christians. We do a Nativity at Christmas, and have family prayers in all kinds of occasions. We have scripture quotes on our walls. Frankly it sickens me when I see government officials doing these things ostentatiously to promote their own popularity.

    To me, government imposing Christianity is the opposite of real faith and and spirituality. Government imposing conservative principles is the opposite of personal responsibility.

    If you're a real, consistent, small government conservative, I will probably agree with you on 99% of issues. Too many conservatives, though, are not.

    You pretty much described my house too.

    I get in many a discussion with other Christians, most conservative, about the role of the government in welfare. I see the government involvement as a hindrance to the Church. Charities (Christian and non-Christian) are leaps and bounds better at helping those in need than the government, yet when things go wrong people turn more and more to the government for help.

    Katrina is a great example of something the federal government had no business getting involved in. Yet many people blame them for their lack of response. The government is just a scapegoat for people to not help each other.

    The response for Katrina victims was pretty extraordinary from those around the country, but if the government wasn't involved I bet it would have been much, much better.
     

    JetGirl

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    I don't do drugs, but I won't put a gun to your head in the name of the state and tell you what to do with your own body.

    Same for abortions...I would NEVER have one, nor advocate one...but I won't force you to comply with my wishes by gun point. That is between you and your maker.

    I don't want you telling ME what to do, either.
    Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.

    The government is just a scapegoat for people to not help each other.
    People fail to realize that the government can't give you anything that it didn't first take from someone else.
     

    Lars

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    Rambone, you and I rarely see things the same. On this one, you get some rep. I like to boil libertarians down to.

    Fiscally conservative. If the Constitution didn't say the Federal Government provides it. We shouldn't be paying for it.

    Socially Liberal. In the sense that, The Government has no right to pry into what you do behind closed doors. Provided what you're doing doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.
     

    dross

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    Just a point. Libertarians may disagree on foreign policy. For instance, I find no conflict with liberating an oppressed people. When a people is held hostage by a leadership or a ruling party, we are not initiating force if we go to war and depose them. They initiated force against others, and we responded. Same principle applies if robbers came to your neighbor's house and you stepped in and used force to help.

    Now, that said, the fact that you might choose to act one way in one situation does not create a moral obligation to act the same way in a similar situation.

    Abortion is another issue that might divide libertarians. A libertarian would agree that the only legitimate use of government is to protect the citizens from the initiation of force. If, however, you believe that a fetus is a human being, it would be within libertarian principles to believe the state has a compelling interest in protecting that human being.

    Libertarian philosophy is very consistent, in general, but there are areas where even libertarians disagree.
     

    dross

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    Rambone, you and I rarely see things the same. On this one, you get some rep. I like to boil libertarians down to.

    Fiscally conservative. If the Constitution didn't say the Federal Government provides it. We shouldn't be paying for it.

    Socially Liberal. In the sense that, The Government has no right to pry into what you do behind closed doors. Provided what you're doing doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.

    I'll boil it down further: Libertarianism is based on the principle that says:

    The initiation of force is always wrong.
     

    JetGirl

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    Government can’t do anything without at least the threat of violence. Actually, government *is* violence.
    Violence is, to some degree, government. Whatever kind of governing you wish to do, you have to impose force on something.
     

    level.eleven

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    Another interesting aspect of Libertarians is that a lot of them started out "conservative", with an overall interest in politics and government. A lot of which, I contribute to exposure. You really don't a dose of classical liberalism, or third parties for that matter, until you discover them on your own. It certainly isn't taught during the discussion of TJ in school. You do get heavy doses of R vs. D. Red team vs. Blue team, literally.
     
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    kwelz

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    I have always identified myself as a libertarian Republican and find these descriptions fairly accurate. I am a republican but not a traditional "conservative". As you can imagine this has caused me no small amount of trouble given my work within the Republican party. I have been called a RINO more than once over some of the dumbest things you have ever heard (Like not going to church).
     

    jsgolfman

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    Government can’t do anything without at least the threat of violence. Actually, government *is* violence.
    Violence is, to some degree, government. Whatever kind of governing you wish to do, you have to impose force on something.
    Why, Annie, you sound like an Austrian. :)

    Government, by definition, is a social monopoly of force. Ethically, the rights of a state can be no different that the rights of the individuals comprising said state.
     

    Fletch

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    My true opinion is far too offensive to post. I'm a fan of libertarianism in all of its flavors; let's just leave it at that.
     

    RBJ13

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    Rambone, you and I rarely see things the same. On this one, you get some rep. I like to boil libertarians down to.

    Fiscally conservative. If the Constitution didn't say the Federal Government provides it. We shouldn't be paying for it.

    Socially Liberal. In the sense that, The Government has no right to pry into what you do behind closed doors. Provided what you're doing doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights.

    This is a very good description. Although I believe that in the realm of social issues, the libertarian perspective can vary significantly on different issues.

    I think it all comes down to the base word of Libertarian, "Liberty". Both the social and fiscal aspects boil down to what an individual's idea of a hands-off government is.

    OP did well but put too many strict parameters on issues. Many libertarians disagree on many things, one being abortion. I realized earlier this year that I am a pretty hardcore (if you can say that) libertarian. I take the liberty of all to the extent of a conceived human (i.e. not yet born) having the freedom to its life, and not under the will of another. Call me crazy, but...

    I recently showed a few friends that they too were actually libertarians but didn't know it.
     
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