Does the United States have a right to torture suspected terrorist?

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  • mettle

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    I'm responding to a short class discussion in a criminal law class:

    The topic was as the title states. I just wrote this up and got to thinking what some of you think about the topic. It is a much debated one, to say the least. Gitmo brings up some issues; but, so does the fact that the 'suspected terrorists' also want my family to burn with fire!

    9/11 changed thing.​

    We cannot take a serious stand for our nation and not counter aggressors against our nation with a simple process of law. Simply adding another prisoner to our cells will not stop the ingress of terrorism towards our nation.
    The argument that each jihadist detainee is under the umbrella of our system of justice automatically upon arrest or surrender, is a false one. They are not immigrated, naturalized or free born citizens. Their interests lie in the very destruction of our nation as a whole; and, they are willing to trade their own lives for ours---quid pro quo.
    There must be a stopping point. How can we automatically draw in a terrorist, who desires to bomb our nations capital, taking him into the criminal justice and ‘hope’ that he decides to do the right thing and confess his plan of mayhem?
    The assumption is a naïve one at best. At worst, the terrorists’ lawyer can offer the terrorist a way to fight the system. Torture, extracting information with the purpose of saving lives and fighting against the cell of terrorists, provides that medium.
    Simply eliminating our nation’s protectors or the sheepdogs that provide a barrier of protection for the sheep will not benefit us. How, if desperate information is needed in a desperate time frame are we to obtain such information if we wait for due process?
    I think the major areas that can be addressed about the processes of interrogation, if they must be addressed, could be in the areas of regulation. As judicial studies way in the balance the viable idea of torture versus due process; so should we look into ways of more closely adhering to the Geneva Conventions policies and seek more humane ways of interrogation.
    As mentioned, the CIA has found that the threat of coercion often leads to compliance; new and more humane ways can be sought. If the United States is to continue life as a free nation, sovereign and unique, it will have to continue improving, but not give up that sovereignty and right to defend itself.
     

    Fletch

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    If rights are dependent upon acceptance into a social group (ie, "Americans"), this is the same argument as the one which says our rights come from the State, and those rights continue to exist only at the pleasure of the State. This is how it is in other countries, but it's not supposed to be how things are done here.

    Rights are not rights because the person is an American. Rights are rights because the person is human, and is endowed with them by their Creator.
     

    ihateiraq

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    Rights are not rights because the person is an American. Rights are rights because the person is human, and is endowed with them by their Creator.

    but their creator is allah, and he didnt give them diddly squat.

    i dont know if we have any jag officers around, but im pretty sure that seeing as they are not uniformed combatants the geneva convention does not apply to them. considering what has happened to americans captured by these "people" i would say that the minimal physical distresses they endure arent too bad in the grand scheme of things. war is hell. why are we the only ones that dont understand that? this is the same america that firebombed germany and dropped a-bombs on japan, isnt it?
     

    mettle

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    I wrote this, obviously, from a variety of angles as it was just a quick response. Not completely thought out; but, my real argument was from my angle of 'country and self' before some guy who wants my way of life wiped off the map.
     

    Fletch

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    but their creator is allah, and he didnt give them diddly squat.

    i dont know if we have any jag officers around, but im pretty sure that seeing as they are not uniformed combatants the geneva convention does not apply to them. considering what has happened to americans captured by these "people" i would say that the minimal physical distresses they endure arent too bad in the grand scheme of things. war is hell. why are we the only ones that dont understand that? this is the same america that firebombed germany and dropped a-bombs on japan, isnt it?

    The title of the thread indicates that we're talking about "suspected" terrorists, as opposed to actual combatants. My answer changes when an individual is a proven aggressor.
     

    ihateiraq

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    The title of the thread indicates that we're talking about "suspected" terrorists, as opposed to actual combatants. My answer changes when an individual is a proven aggressor.

    fair enough. its extremely difficult or even impossible to know for certain though...until theyve been tuned up a bit anyway. :laugh:
     

    antsi

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    I say we just go ahead and torture everyone. There are probably a lot of "sleeper cells" around, and there's no reason a US citizen can't be a terrorist. I bet if we start torturing people, we find out all kinds of criminal and terrorist conspiracies going on under our noses. If it saves even one life, it's worth it.
     

    Expat

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    Part of the problem in answering this question is I don't know what you mean by torture. I always thought of torture as the infliction of actual physical injury (branding, cutting, shooting... the bamboo shoots under the nails sort of thing). I do have a problem with those methods. But threatening someone, psychological tactics (like waterboarding), keeping them awake and listening to rock music... I don't consider that torture and have no problem with its use against suspected terrorists.
     

    jsgolfman

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    I'm responding to a short class discussion in a criminal law class:

    The topic was as the title states. I just wrote this up and got to thinking what some of you think about the topic. It is a much debated one, to say the least. Gitmo brings up some issues; but, so does the fact that the 'suspected terrorists' also want my family to burn with fire!


    9/11 changed thing.​


    We cannot take a serious stand for our nation and not counter aggressors against our nation with a simple process of law. Simply adding another prisoner to our cells will not stop the ingress of terrorism towards our nation.
    The argument that each jihadist detainee is under the umbrella of our system of justice automatically upon arrest or surrender, is a false one. They are not immigrated, naturalized or free born citizens. Their interests lie in the very destruction of our nation as a whole; and, they are willing to trade their own lives for ours---quid pro quo.
    There must be a stopping point. How can we automatically draw in a terrorist, who desires to bomb our nations capital, taking him into the criminal justice and ‘hope’ that he decides to do the right thing and confess his plan of mayhem?
    The assumption is a naïve one at best. At worst, the terrorists’ lawyer can offer the terrorist a way to fight the system. Torture, extracting information with the purpose of saving lives and fighting against the cell of terrorists, provides that medium.
    Simply eliminating our nation’s protectors or the sheepdogs that provide a barrier of protection for the sheep will not benefit us. How, if desperate information is needed in a desperate time frame are we to obtain such information if we wait for due process?
    I think the major areas that can be addressed about the processes of interrogation, if they must be addressed, could be in the areas of regulation. As judicial studies way in the balance the viable idea of torture versus due process; so should we look into ways of more closely adhering to the Geneva Conventions policies and seek more humane ways of interrogation.
    As mentioned, the CIA has found that the threat of coercion often leads to compliance; new and more humane ways can be sought. If the United States is to continue life as a free nation, sovereign and unique, it will have to continue improving, but not give up that sovereignty and right to defend itself.
    You are confusing two different subjects, interrogation and torture. I am in favor of interrogation, but not torture.
     

    Jay

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    I'd be interested in hearing about any war ever being won as a direct result of any legal action, or the interpretation of any law, or any war won by acts, or omissions of acts of torture. Wars are not won because of any rules or guidelines, or political ideologies. Wars are won because one of the combatants has inflicted enough physical damage, through various punitive actions, to cause the enemy to surrender, or to eliminate the enemy altogether. That's how it happens. "Polite" combat is a figment of someone's imagination.

    To include "humane" in any discussion of war, reveals the participants to be completely ignorant of what happens in a war. Just trot right out there, and let me shoot you with this "humane" bullet. No? .... go figure .....

    If you enter into an armed conflict, with the intention of being civilized, and ethical, you'll get your fanny handed to you on a plate..... and you'll deserve it.
     

    CombatVet

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    If they are listed as enemy combatants then the Geneva Convention prohibits it. If they are not listed as enemy combatants then our Laws prohibit it. In short it shouldn't happen. Torture doesn't work, it's been proven. If you beat some one for days they'll confess to anything in order to stop the beatings. "The beatings will continue until moral improves!" same theory there. Torture is illegal for a reason.
     

    Expat

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    If they are listed as enemy combatants then the Geneva Convention prohibits it. If they are not listed as enemy combatants then our Laws prohibit it. In short it shouldn't happen. Torture doesn't work, it's been proven. If you beat some one for days they'll confess to anything in order to stop the beatings. "The beatings will continue until moral improves!" same theory there. Torture is illegal for a reason.

    I hear this quoted pretty often. Respectfully I would point out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed reportedly gave a great deal of beneficial information after being continually waterboarded for an extended period of time. He was uncooperative prior to the techniques being applied to him.
     

    CombatVet

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    I hear this quoted pretty often. Respectfully I would point out that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed reportedly gave a great deal of beneficial information after being continually waterboarded for an extended period of time. He was uncooperative prior to the techniques being applied to him.

    :+1:
    The question with that is did whoever was doing the waterbording say "Did you do "this"? Did you do it this way? Did you do it at this time?" We weren't in the room so we will never really know. Now if he volunteered information and was not led by the questions then I hold my opinion. I'm human and would do just about anything if pushed. It's a gray world and we can't always do the black and white. As such the law should be more gray than black and white. It's a difficult line to walk. Do we torture some one who we suspect did heinous acts? The potential that some one innocent being tortured is the same, if not greater; as an innocent man being jailed in our legal system. At the same time, would you torture an American? Morals are a PITA some times.
     

    Fletch

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    I'd be interested in hearing about any war ever being won as a direct result of any legal action, or the interpretation of any law, or any war won by acts, or omissions of acts of torture. Wars are not won because of any rules or guidelines, or political ideologies. Wars are won because one of the combatants has inflicted enough physical damage, through various punitive actions, to cause the enemy to surrender, or to eliminate the enemy altogether. That's how it happens. "Polite" combat is a figment of someone's imagination.

    To include "humane" in any discussion of war, reveals the participants to be completely ignorant of what happens in a war. Just trot right out there, and let me shoot you with this "humane" bullet. No? .... go figure .....

    If you enter into an armed conflict, with the intention of being civilized, and ethical, you'll get your fanny handed to you on a plate..... and you'll deserve it.

    Again, are we talking about confirmed enemies or suspected enemies? I will readily agree that any individual who is demonstrably out to hurt us needs to be dealt with by whatever means necessary. But the creepy guy in the next booth over at Chili's, who's just setting off my alarm bells for some undefinable reason, merely bears watching or perhaps avoiding, not an initiation of force on my part.

    The thread was started to discuss "suspected" enemies, and all of my answers are predicated on that.
     

    Dr Falken

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    One of the things that comes to my mind is the term "Domestic Terrorist" and how far we might go to interrogate or "question" them. I understand the "need" to question in Gitmo, but thru out history it was not uncommon to use these techniques against people who are merely political oposition. That is why, as a freeman I worry about where this might go...
     

    Fletch

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    One of the things that comes to my mind is the term "Domestic Terrorist" and how far we might go to interrogate or "question" them. I understand the "need" to question in Gitmo, but thru out history it was not uncommon to use these techniques against people who are merely political oposition. That is why, as a freeman I worry about where this might go...

    QFT
     

    E5RANGER375

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    i dont believe torture on a UNIFORMED soldier from a RECOGNIZED COUNTRY fighting under that countries military is right. on a terrorist and a thug who wants to try and fight like a coward, then i dont care, just make them disapear afterwards. when "torture" as some call it (i call it persuasion) reaches a certain point then i do think the intelligence gathered becomes useless in some cases. just my opinion
     

    Jay

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    Domestic terrorists..... (US Citizens) should be afforded due process, and those protections dictated by law.

    Those terrorists, suspected, or otherwise, who are NOT US citizens, were not pressured by the US to become who/what they are, or might be. If they should pose for whatever reason a credible threat to the United States or her citizens, then those persons, should be (in my opinion) persecuted, or prosecuted, to whatever extent will best provide safety for the United States, and her citizens.
     

    wtfd661

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    i dont believe torture on a UNIFORMED soldier from a RECOGNIZED COUNTRY fighting under that countries military is right. on a terrorist and a thug who wants to try and fight like a coward, then i dont care, just make them disapear afterwards. when "torture" as some call it (i call it persuasion) reaches a certain point then i do think the intelligence gathered becomes useless in some cases. just my opinion


    Very good point. :yesway:

    There is a huge difference between a Uniformed Soldier and some piece of crap who is willing to murder innocent civilians in his "jihad".
     
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