***OUT OF STATE*** Best .223 for deer hunting

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  • T.Lex

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    First off, as noted, this is not for deer hunting in Indiana. I spent the past weekend in Texas on a managed land hunt. Basically, in Texas, "managed lands" have quotas assigned to them by the wildlife department. We were there to take deer and hogs.

    Now the scenario that I'd like input on.

    After discussing the options with the owners, I settled on using an AR* with standard 55 grain rounds. That's what the rifle was zeroed with and the owners of the property had no reluctance. We've hunted there before, and frankly, hogs have been more plentiful than deer. (Specifically with regard to hogs, the owners don't care if hogs hurt before they die.)

    In the course of this hunt, we (including the owners that hunted with us) took bucks and does (more than we EVER have in trips there) with .270 Win, .30-06, and my .223. Of those, my .223 was the only one that required a finishing shot.

    On the shot, there were some gusting winds across the rather large field. The actual shot was at about 80 yds, from a 20' high stand. The deer was leisurely walking across the field, and straight across my shot angle/field of view. Completely broadside. But it didn't stop. Well, when it would pause, by the time I lined up the shot, it started walking again.

    As it crossed directly across from me, I decided I would take a shot. No deer had been taken at this point against the quota, and we'd all talked about how they've had trouble getting to the quota in years past. I knew that, at that range, the flight time would be less than 1/10 of a second (using Strelok+).

    I felt like I got a good shot off, but given my own abilities and the environmental factors, the first shot resulted in a spine hit. The deer fell immediately. It was still basically broadside to me, so I was able to finish it with a lung shot. It was not as clean as I would like it. Even with the finishing shot, the animal suffered several minutes while I waited for nightfall and walked out to it. (The other kills happened after mine, and there was a chance something else might've been flushed out to my area.)

    The owners expressed no issue with how the shot transpired, or the result. The deer died. It is one less deer they have to hunt for the rest of the season. They have a rather binary measure of success. :) Don't get me wrong, they are very ethical and safe hunters, but they live on this land and care for the cattle on it. What is important to them is not necessarily the same thing that is important to a city slicker, couple-hunts a year hunter.

    So, my own takeaways:
    - I need to shoot better. (We can discuss this aspect, but it is what it is.)
    - I need to make sure to take account of the environmental factors. (Same thing.)
    - I have serious doubt about the .223 round I was using, and perhaps the .223 round generally.

    I found this thread here:
    https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/great-outdoors/321799-5-56-vs-whitetail-graphic-pics.html

    But it is somewhat old. (BTW, I would not try a headshot on a deer. I accept that it is beyond my abilities.)

    I'd really like input on the last issue - the .223 round generally, and specifically if there is a more effective hunting round.

    So, what says INGO?

    TIA.

    *I also have a .308 that I've taken in the past, as well as a 7.62x39 that I took on a trip there years ago. Both are rather heavy compared to the AR, and we spend roughly have the time on these hunts stalking.
     

    avboiler11

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    You say "standard 55gr rounds"...do you mean FMJ?

    A spine hit from a larger caliber with a premium hunting bullet may not have resulted in an immediate kill, either.

    As for "more effective hunting round", I stand by my comment in the above linked thread that a 75/77gr match bullet performs very well on deer with their yawing, fragmentation, and penetration characteristics. I'd have ZERO issue putting one of those into the vitals of a monster beanfield buck.

    Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

    That said, something like a Federal 62gr Fusion, Nosler 60gr Partition or 64gr BSB, Sierra 65gr Gameking, Hornady 55gr GMX or Barnes 55/62gr TSX/TTSX would provide deep penetration and substantial expansion.
     

    T.Lex

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    You say "standard 55gr rounds"...do you mean FMJ?
    Thanks for the response! And yes, FMJ.

    That said, something like a Federal 62gr Fusion, Nosler 60gr Partition or 64gr BSB, Sierra 65gr Gameking, Hornady 55gr GMX or Barnes 55/62gr TSX/TTSX would provide deep penetration and substantial expansion.
    Thanks for the specific recommendation. I'lll look into those.
     

    JimH

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    Avboiler gave you the right answer.FMJ is what you definately don't want for deer with a .223!
     

    roscott

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    Seems like avboiler pretty much wrapped this up. To me however, it sounds like a great excuse to buy a featherweight .308 boltgun!
     

    T.Lex

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    Seems like avboiler pretty much wrapped this up. To me however, it sounds like a great excuse to buy a featherweight .308 boltgun!

    Hmmm... you might be on to something.

    Instead of trying to justify $1/rd for hunting ammo, I could justify a whole new rifle. :D

    "See, honey, the thing would pay for itself after 30 boxes of ammo." :D
     
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    natdscott

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    If I had to use a .223 to hunt with, it would probably be an LTR or similar. I'd run the 65 GameKing in front of about 26 grains of AA2520.

    My reasoning is simple: I rarely need more than one shot, maybe two, so the AR is wasted, and with a bolt gun, I can push loads a lot harder than at ALL safe in a gas gun.

    I've run very similar through an AR, and it's pretty nasty.


    But .223 is not a deer round. Not here, and not in Texas either. If it is to be used on them, then you need to be good enough for CNS shots.

    -Nate
     

    patience0830

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    Used 85 gr gameking in my .243 this yr. I can vouch that the bullet works. 2 shots, 2 deer. Watched them both fall.

    If the .223. 65 grainers work as well as their big brother.

    Don't understand the aversion to .224 caliber deer rifles. Make a good boiler room shot and whitetails aren't that hard to kill. If you shoot a .223 better than a 300 WM, you'd probably be better off and kill more deer cleanly with the .223 and a good mushrooming bullet.
     
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    natdscott

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    Patience, we're not talking about "... .224 caliber deer rifles. "

    We are talking specifically about .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO. My point is that THAT round is not enough for deer.


    Sure, a fast-twist .22-250 with a Barnes TSX is a totally different thing.

    -Nate
     

    Small's

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    tsx, federal fusion 62gr/speer gold dot is the same type and they come in 55,64 and 75gr, corelok. There are many good rounds out there. Keep and eye on palmetto state armory. Occasionally they have fusion on sale and here lately the gold dots have been $10 for a box of 20.
     

    avboiler11

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    natdscott said:
    We are talking specifically about .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO. My point is that THAT round is not enough for deer.

    People have been killing deer for eons with arrows, right? Still do to this day, right?

    223 Remington is *plenty* for deer. Use a proper bullet and place aforementioned proper bullet in the proper place and the result will be an extremely dead animal, ethically killed in the same manner as one hit with a 30 caliber rifle.

    I like CNS shots and would never advocate a 'long range' shot (say 200yd+) on a whitetail with a 223 nor attempting to break shoulders with one...but heart/lungs all day long.
     

    patience0830

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    Patience, we're not talking about "... .224 caliber deer rifles. "

    We are talking specifically about .223 Remington/5.56x45mm NATO. My point is that THAT round is not enough for deer.


    Sure, a fast-twist .22-250 with a Barnes TSX is a totally different thing.

    -Nate

    .223 works fine. Please don't insult my intelligence and assume I'm confused by the question. .222 will do the job. It's all about shot placement and knowing your own limitations. I know that a headshot from a .17 HMR would drop one in its tracks. Am I gonna attempt head shots on deer? No. Too much uncertainty. That part moves early and often. .22 center fire to the boiler where legal? It's absolutely as humane as any other in competent hands.
     

    natdscott

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    Cranial works, but you better be good, with a good rifle, and know how deer behave well enough to predict when they'll hold still long enough to accept a bit of copper in the brain. I am the same as avboiler...it's strictly a short range deal 50-75 yards and under. I can hit the target further, but the elapsed time--from both my reaction, and for the bullet travel--means too much risk of the deer catching my 'perfect' shot in the jaw. A tenth of a second or two is an eternity for movement of a kill zone only 3 inches wide, and even with the FAST portions of the cartridges now legal, that's what you're looking at at 150-200 yards for bullet travel. Add in 2/10ths for reaction time for even the 20 year olds among us...

    .223 works fine. Please don't insult my intelligence and assume I'm confused by the question. .

    I didn't insult your intelligence. What I had a problem with is your ability to communicate what you meant (or...what I think you meant).

    You SAID "... .224 caliber rifles...". That MEANS (in plain English) ANYthing with a .224 caliber bullet. That can mean a .22 WMR doing 2,000 fps through (at least) a .22-243 Middlestead clocking 5,000+ fps. Big difference.

    So if I may ask, how many deer have you shot with a .223, and how did it go?

    Look, I'm not challenging the idea that a .223 Remington can kill a deer. Sure it can. But my opinion after many, many deer shot with larger weapons--and more that "a little" experience on the 5.56x45mm NATO--is that it isn't enough.

    Nobody in my family has lost a deer to a firearm in my recollection; that's a good bit over 2 decades of shooting them for me, probably 4 decades on the upper end...do you want to know why?

    The WHY is because we use pretty heavy weapons for the job, and because we don't take shots we can't hit. We blow really big holes in really bad spots to have extra ventilation, and it ALWAYS works. Not maybe. Not "oh, it should be good enough"... EVERY time a really big hole.

    Sure, they're just little ders, and they're about the same weight as us, and since the AR works so well on people (it doesn't always, by the by...) then it should work on deer, right?



    right....?


    No.


    Respectfully disagreeing,
    -Nate
     

    T.Lex

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    So, I'm absolutely NOT being argumentative with this. You've volunteered to present the counter-argument, though. :D

    natdscott;6834534But my opinion after many said:
    and more that "a little" experience on the 5.56x45mm NATO[/B]--is that it isn't enough.

    Would you say this about all .223? And what I mean is that some heavier bullets/loads have been proffered as being better than "good enough" - they've been suggested to be appropriate.

    In your opinion are there no .223 rounds that you would consider appropriate?

    Again, thanks for the conversation about this.
     

    Hookeye

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    Arrows kill differently, so should not be brought into this argument.

    400 Plus grain projectiles, cutting edges.........blowing holes quite large, minimal shock...........blood vessels stay open...........bleeding critters out.
    I have shot a deer where the arrow zipped through the lungs and the deer continued to feed. And that one didn't slide between the ribs, it cut them, in and out.

    .223 for deer..................never would have guessed FMJ to be considered usable. Figured one of the "hog/deer" loads to be an obvious choice (reg 55gr stuff probably frangible varmint type bullet).

    Texas deer..............where a big 10 pointer dresses 100#.
     

    Hookeye

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    When IN changes the regs to mirror the handgun spec I intend to pop some deer with a 6mm-223
    and a 256 win.

    But it won't be under general hunting. It will be for specific shot types/distances.
     

    avboiler11

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    Arrows kill differently, so should not be brought into this argument.

    Broadheads create a wound causing severe blood loss, which is what causes a game animal to expire...correct?

    An expanding bullet that penetrates the heart/lungs does pretty much the exact same thing.

    Arrows with field points and FMJs are similar in performance...
     

    natdscott

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    Would you say this about all .223? And what I mean is that some heavier bullets/loads have been proffered as being better than "good enough" - they've been suggested to be appropriate.

    In your opinion are there no .223 rounds that you would consider appropriate?

    You got it. I am saying exactly that: none of them are appropriate. What I am NOT saying is that they can't kill a deer...a pocket knife can kill a deer. The question is whether it is humane or not, and I say that 5.56x45mm isn't enough round--in any iteration--to do so.

    To put more background out there, much of my experience with 5.56 has been with heavy past-NATO pressure loads with heavy bullets. These loads approach, and for some of us, well exceed the performance of rounds such as the Mark 262 Mod X ammo loaded with the 77 Sierra.

    By almost all known accounts, these 262 loads are the most effective rounds on human targets ever issued.

    To reiterate: my 80-82 grain long range loads are WELL beyond any Mk 262. It's left in the dust at 700 yards, and I'm over the 1,000 yardline supersonic (just barely).

    These long bullets, fired from a 7.0 to 8.0" twist are highly dynamically stable in the air, and possess more than enough gyroscopic stability and rigidity of the long axis to drive themselves into the dirt point-first at termination. That is all assuming the bullet does not encounter a major change in density of the surrounding medium during flight...such as hitting a mammal. When the bullet encounters the extreme change in density, the previously rigid rotational axis is completely obliterated with the huge increase in overturning moment of inertia that the water-filled sac of bones presents. The result is catastrophic yaw. At high velocity, the bullet cannot tolerate that much force on the side of the jacket, and it breaks up, blowing pieces of lead and jacket all over the place.

    It's not really a theory, as it has been well proven by X-ray, and observation in gel testing.

    In humans, this ammunition is absolutely devastating on unarmored targets under 300 yards, and is considered "effective" at least to 600, if not further, but "effective" in terms of combat only refers to the ability to create a battlefield casualty, not necessarily a kill.

    When the round is used outside the critical velocity zone (read: range) in which it has enough speed to yaw and break up, it only goes through, tumbles, and creates a rather small permanent wound. Depending on placement, obviously a 1" to .230" hole is still not survivable, but it may take awhile.

    Any way you slice it, they don't produce a very large wound canal.

    And all of this is on humans, who are by almost all accounts NOT the equal of a wild animal for toughness, with a few notable exceptions (eg: PCP use; extreme training such as religious zealots, or elite military groups undertake; etc.).


    Tell you what. I'll concede something. In elite hands that can hit the body of the heart every shot, and with hot loads using heavy bullets, maybe .223 is a 100 yard cartridge At that range, they can be relied upon--via their retained speed--to perform as I illustrated above, and they'd still punch through a rib okay. That, or ONLY on CNS shots, but as we've said, taking a cranial shot outside 100 yards is a dicey proposition given the small target (relative to human anatomy) and the unpredictability of movements.

    -Nate
     

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