Is a Pistol Always a Pistol? (Hunting Regulations)

[roscott]

I figured I would start a new thread to ask, rather than hijack another.


Hookeye was kind enough to summarize the following:
”Got a handgun?
4" or longer barrel?
Case length 1.16" or longer?
.24 cal or larger?
No FMJ bullets?

Then you are legal for deer on public and private ( but not military areas).”

Indiana has stated, (if I recall correctly,) that unlike the strange federal laws, anything over 26” isn’t a pistol. I was told that’s why the shockwave shotguns require a carry permit. So if I’m hunting with my 6.5 Grendel pistol with 12.5” barrel and it’s over 26” with the brace collapsed, does that constitute a rifle, or a pistol?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mgderf]

I could be wrong, but I believe the AR is classified by the type of stock, or lack thereof.
If you have a collapsible stock (shoulder), and a 12.5" barrel, I'm thinking it's an SBR (short barreled rifle) and would require a tax stamp, but is NOT a pistol regardless of the barrel length.

An AR becomes a "pistol" with a "blade" style "arm brace", or just an extension tube, and can have a 24" barrel, but it's still a pistol due to the "stock".

Any stock "designed to be shouldered" automatically makes it a "rifle". Then the barrel length determines standard rifle or SBR.

 

[Hookeye]

IIRC the Shockwaves are not shotguns. They are firearms.


A stock on a handgun makes it a rifle, either a regular ol rifle.......or an NFA item (short barrel rifle).

A handgun may have a brace that looks like a stock, but it better not be a stock.

Think the looks of some braces are causing the confusion.

 

[Hookeye]

IIRC.........( a big "if" by the way)

The old rule was that you could convert handguns to rifles, if never crossing into NFA territory during the conversion process.

However, those same old rules also said "once a rifle, always a rifle".....so technically, once a handgun was converted to rifle, it had to stay that way.

SCOTUS ruled that wasn't so, that one could take a handgun to rifle and put it back to handgun........restore to original form (no new firearm made).
Of course it had to not go into NFA territory during the changes.

.................................................

I would guess that if one bought an AR rifle, then it would have to stay a rifle.
If one bought an AR handgun it could be made into a rifle (and back to handgun too) if never crossing into NFA territory.

If one bought a receiver.......... dunno.

Does first form dictate what it will be? If your stripped receiver gets built into handgun first, it could then be made to whatever legal rifle or handgun without issue (no NFA during process). But if you built it a rifle first...........would it have to stay a rifle?

Or does "receiver" on your 4473 allow whatever you want, regardless of initial build?

I dunno.........but to not lie about it, my stripped lower got a pistol buffer tube on it immediately. So by form, it was a handgun first.

 

[Hookeye]

Think IN regs no longer allow SBR for deer hunting.
Might have been changed when they allowed HP rifle.

 

[roscott]

Thanks guys. It is a pistol with a collapsible brace, (definitely a pistol by federal standards) so sounds like it’s firmly a pistol for Indiana hunting purposes as well.

I’m on private ground, but just wanted to make sure I wasn’t going to prison for having 11 rounds in my hunting pack.

You gotta admit, the multitude of legistlation in these areas is pretty ridiculous.

 

[King31]

IIRC.........( a big "if" by the way)

The old rule was that you could convert handguns to rifles, if never crossing into NFA territory during the conversion process.

However, those same old rules also said "once a rifle, always a rifle".....so technically, once a handgun was converted to rifle, it had to stay that way.

SCOTUS ruled that wasn't so, that one could take a handgun to rifle and put it back to handgun........restore to original form (no new firearm made).
Of course it had to not go into NFA territory during the changes.

.................................................

I would guess that if one bought an AR rifle, then it would have to stay a rifle.
If one bought an AR handgun it could be made into a rifle (and back to handgun too) if never crossing into NFA territory.

If one bought a receiver.......... dunno.

Does first form dictate what it will be? If your stripped receiver gets built into handgun first, it could then be made to whatever legal rifle or handgun without issue (no NFA during process). But if you built it a rifle first...........would it have to stay a rifle?

Or does "receiver" on your 4473 allow whatever you want, regardless of initial build?

I dunno.........but to not lie about it, my stripped lower got a pistol buffer tube on it immediately. So by form, it was a handgun first.

Most often when buying a lower receiver it transfers as "Other" or "MultiCal". Once it becomes a rifle build it can no longer become a handgun, but without registering I really don't see why it would matter for most people. The brace is most likely an SBA3 collapsible brace. I have the exact same setup as the OP and would love to know the answer from an actual CO. I didn't get mine put together until midway through the season, so it wasn't a concern for this year.

According to the ATF, an AR Pistol with a brace can legally be shouldered as of now without needing an SBR stamp. I believe a rifle has to have at least an 18" barrel in Indiana as well.

 

[Hookeye]

Rifle bbl min is 16"
Shotgun bbl min is 18"

And if you want to know the law.............might want to look beyond what a CO might have to say.
Not all of them are gun guys.
Have heard some doozies from some.

 

[Hookeye]

Most often when buying a lower receiver it transfers as "Other" or "MultiCal". Once it becomes a rifle build it can no longer become a handgun, but without registering I really don't see why it would matter for most people. The brace is most likely an SBA3 collapsible brace. I have the exact same setup as the OP and would love to know the answer from an actual CO. I didn't get mine put together until midway through the season, so it wasn't a concern for this year.

According to the ATF, an AR Pistol with a brace can legally be shouldered as of now without needing an SBR stamp. I believe a rifle has to have at least an 18" barrel in Indiana as well.

My understanding is that if it was built into a pistol first, and later a rifle, it can go back and forth.
But if built into rifle first......technically, it has to stay a rifle.
Built mine into a pistol first, so as to never worry about what it turned into.

Lots of pistols got braces........and the BATF said shouldering one was a no no.
Then they changed their ruling and shouldering a pistol brace was OK.

What will it be next time the wind blows?

Saw the skirting of SBR laws being flaunted in Shotgun News and other (during initial brace craze) and figured the BATF was gonna get snippy.
How it played out to now.........down the road............might be kinda funny.
Rumor was the inventor of the brace had them, based on some disabled persons legalities.

 

[Hookeye]

I had a Contender Super 16.
16.25" bbl.
With pistol grip........was a pistol.
Adding buttstock..........was a rifle (met OAL req).
Totally legal.
But I used a G2 forend, which fooled some forum critics (who only remembered visually the amount of bbl projection past G1 carbine forends).
So got some nice "warnings".............even when the info was posted up front it was a "Super 16".
Some folks were even saying a .35 rem wasn't deer legal........due to not being straight walled case (even when saying it was to be used in Indiana- where there is no straight wall case mandate to PCR.........and the cases were trimmed to meet the 1.8 max case spec).
Me thinks some folks are a bit screwed up........maybe something in the water...........in those straight walled case PCR states

 

[Hookeye]

Remember when PCR first became legal.........lots of folks said it was straight wall case, lever action or single shot only.

Yeah right.

 

[Hookeye]

Think it perfectly fine to play the game, use out of the ordinary stuff.
The idea is to have FUN
But when doing the stuff, even when 100% legal...........the farther you get from the ordinary, the higher the risk of having to explain the law to some who might not know what the law really says (even when they should).
Play the game, accept the hassle I guess.

I don't think all CO's are friends of the sportsmen.

One hassled a guy running less than 1.8" .35 Remington cases (under PCR regs, was before HP rifle test period).
CO didn't measure the cases, used a business card with a graphic that was not to scale.
Never checked the card w calipers either.

 

[d.kaufman]

Doesn't really pertain to ops original post but whenever i build an ar lower i always complete the lower as a pistol first. I'll snap a pic in that configuration and keep for my records. I build every stripped lower that way first, then I should be good to go back and forth between pistol and rifle as i please, if my interpretation of the law is correct.

 

[Hookeye]

Even if your (and my) interpretation is incorrect, we are on the safe side LOL.
I don't do the picture thing though. If my word isn't good enough then theirs isn't either.

 

[IronsKeeper]

So I have about half the parts for a .300 BO pistol build with SB15 brace (thanks to the Marketplace).

I've tried Googling pistol rules for DNR, but I can't figure out where it might be.

And again, this pistol (10 or 12 inch bbl, haven't decided yet) should be legal for deer, yes?

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[Mgderf]

So I have about half the parts for a .300 BO pistol build with SB15 brace (thanks to the Marketplace).

I've tried Googling pistol rules for DNR, but I can't figure out where it might be.

And again, this pistol (10 or 12 inch bbl, haven't decided yet) should be legal for deer, yes?

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

Yes, a .300blk "pistol" is legal for deer in Indiana.

 

[Hookeye]

Pistol?
.24 cal or larger?
Case length 1.16" or longer?


How is this so hard to understand?

 

[IronsKeeper]

Pistol?
.24 cal or larger?
Case length 1.16" or longer?


How is this so hard to understand?

I saw the first post, did not see the original thread this was spun off from, and could not locate the law or regs on the DNR website.

A couple things in the middle threw me off, but I'm clear now.

Primarily I'd still like to find the actual code or DNR release regarding said code, because I always double check everything where law is concerned.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

 

[Mgderf]

Remember when PCR first became legal..........

I do!
I immediately ran out and bought a brand new JM stamped Marlin 1894 in .44mag.
Six months later Marlin stopped making that model...
I got one of the last JM stamped 1894's. I used it this season to take a nice 9 point buck.

 

[Hookeye]

Look up the law, not what the DNR thinks it is.

Remember, they took PCR off the table for a bit.

Was not a mistake either.