Old Military Rifle Barrel Fouling

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  • Luckyoldguy

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    I am new to INGunOwners. One of my main interests is in older military arms. I have a 1941 M1 Garand with the original barrel that has some unusual barrel fouling. I have tried many, many different things to clear the fouling but nothing has worked.
    Can anyone steer me to a thread on this subject and/or recommend a local gunsmith who might be familiar with fouling unique to older military arms?
    The fowling is in about the last eight inches of the barrel toward the muzzle end. It light tan and has filled the rifling grooves. It is extremely hard and I have not been able to remove it using about 20 different methods/products.
    Any help would be appreciated.
    Thanks,
     

    2in1evtime

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    Soak some rags strips in KROIL OIL and let them sit in the barrel for a day or so If this doesn't break it loose you might consider having CMP rebarrel it. Also get a high quality jag for cleaning it also.
     

    Thor

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    Welcome to INGO!

    Sounds like it could be a severe case of Copper or Cupro-nickel fouling. In the products you tried have any been copper removers?

    Products I've heard work: Gunslick foaming bore cleaner, Hoppes 9 Benchrest, Sweets, Butches and Barnes CR10, JB paste, Bore Tech Eliminator (go by the instructions and the copper will disappear)

    I have also heard it recommended that using two different copper cleaners will get the best results...just be sure to clean well between applications as I do not recommend mixing any of these chemicals together.

    Best of luck.
     

    Bfish

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    Welcome to INGO! Good luck with you issue, it looks like there are a few suggestions and I'm sure there will be more to come. If I had to guess someone has encountered something similar before.
     

    oldpink

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    Several judicious applications of Shooter's Choice might get it done.
    Just be sure to scrupulously follow the instructions each time.
    If the fouling remains after that, you're certainly better off getting a rebarrel job at that point.
     

    55fairlane

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    Jerry Johnson in Ft Wayne is very good with those rifles, the CMP is a great choice also......if it where me.....room up a foam ear plug,stuff it in the muzzle,fill the barrel up kroil,let it soak for a couple days,pull a bore snake threw it, repeat but this till fill the bore with hoppes #9


    Aaron
     

    BGDave

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    Is the Garand a "Blue Sky" import by any chance. If it is, it may be parkerized inside the barrel.

    Had one that way. By the time I got it scrubbed out of mine it was obviously a re-barrel candidate. To bad too, it was a 6 of 1944 barrel.
     

    Squirt239

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    I believe the stuff is called copper killer. Don't use it inside. DON'T USE IT INSIDE. When you open the lid, dip your brush and immediately put the lid back on. I can't stress enough how volitile this stuff is. But it works.
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Thank you all for your input and suggestions. Unfortunately, I have tried every single one of these products/techniques with no luck. I have also tried JB cleaning compound and chameleon gel. After getting all of the typical fouling out, the chameleon gel showed a tan color which does not match any of the types of fouling they list. Just about the only thing I haven't tried is ultrasonic cleaning. I spent over a month and a half trying all of these techniques before giving up. I have the gun more as a collector item than a shooter so keeping the original barrel is important to me but it is now a matter of principal to try to figure out what the fouling is. At this stage I figure the barrel is shot anyway so I'm not against trying some harsher techniques to remove the fowling. One thing I would like to try is one of the systems where you fire special bullets to loosen the fouling but I am not sure if this is safe with the rifling grooves being full of the fouling near the muzzle. I have checked the headspace and it barely passes "no-go" and easily passes "field" so it should be safe from that perspective. The strange nature of this fouling is one of the reasons I was hoping to finds someone on the forum or a gunsmith who is familiar with it. Maybe I will try to get in touch with Jerry Johnson and see if this is something he could take a look at.
    Thanks again for your help. Any other thoughts/comments would be appreciated.
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure what Cupro-Nickel fouling is but I don't think it's copper fouling. When I use a stainless steel jag and any of the cooper removal products I don't get even a hint of blue color on the patch. I have used each of the products you list plus some more and I still cannot remove it. It is so hard I can't believe it. Thinking that the barrel is gone anyway I finally tried to scratch the fouling using a carbide tipped tool and could not even put a scratch in the fouling.
    Again, I really appreciate your input.
    Thanks,
     
    Last edited:

    Luckyoldguy

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    I'm not sure what a "Blue Sky" import is but I do think from what I have tracked down that this gun is a "Greek Return". If I was going to shoot it regularly I would definitely have it re-barreled but since it is primarily a collector item I would like to keep the matched barrel and receiver. I am probably going to just keep it as is and use it as a wall hanger but I would really like to figure out what this fouling is.
    Thanks again for your input.
     
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    Thor

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    Cupro-Nickel or Cu-Ni was used as one of the first jackets for bullets, developed by the Brits for use in the .303 early versions. It was very corrosion resistant (though difficult and often dangerous to produce) and didn't really cause problems until higher velocities were achieved. The -06 caused significant fouling that was almost impossible to remove in the field and negatively impacted accuracy. As a result the U.S. stopped using this as a jacket and went to straight copper in the early 40's while the Brits produced it until the '60s. As a whole the Brits were not as concerned with accuracy.

    Who knows what the Greeks would have fired through it. I have heard of some success using an electro-chemical 'reverse electroplating' process if you haven't tried that. It's sort of like what we use to clean up old cast iron pans to look like new.

    http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Gu...get-Inclined-8211-Part-I/detail.htm?lid=10710

    Gun Cleaning Clinic: Easy Bore Cleaning For The Gadget-Inclined - Part II | World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools - BROWNELLS
     
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    Luckyoldguy

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    Cupro-Nickel or Cu-Ni was used as one of the first jackets for bullets, developed by the Brits for use in the .303 early versions. It was very corrosion resistant (though difficult and often dangerous to produce) and didn't really cause problems until higher velocities were achieved. The -06 caused significant fouling that was almost impossible to remove in the field and negatively impacted accuracy. As a result the U.S. stopped using this as a jacket and went to straight copper in the early 40's while the Brits produced it until the '60s. As a whole the Brits were not as concerned with accuracy.

    Who knows what the Greeks would have fired through it. I have heard of some success using an electro-chemical 'reverse electroplating' process if you haven't tried that. It's sort of like what we use to clean up old cast iron pans to look like new.

    Gun Cleaning Clinic: Easy Bore Cleaning For The Gadget-Inclined ? Part I | World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools - BROWNELLS

    Gun Cleaning Clinic: Easy Bore Cleaning For The Gadget-Inclined - Part II | World's Largest Supplier of Firearm Accessories, Gun Parts and Gunsmithing Tools - BROWNELLS

    Thank you very much for the information and education. I tried researching it some more and it looks like its a good possibility that Cu-Ni ammo was used in the Greek return guns and its likely that could be the source of the fouling I am dealing with. I can't afford one at the moment but the "reverse electroplating" system looks very interesting and I will give it a try when I can. Also found some info on making your own system so will look into that further too.
    Thank you again. I really appreciate it.
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Is the Garand a "Blue Sky" import by any chance. If it is, it may be parkerized inside the barrel.

    Had one that way. By the time I got it scrubbed out of mine it was obviously a re-barrel candidate. To bad too, it was a 6 of 1944 barrel.

    Could you tell me what a "Blue Sky" import is? I have never heard that term before and am curious.
    Thanks.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Blue sky was the importer. Somewhere on the barrel, either up by the front sight or behind the op rod, it will be stamped " Blue Sky"

    And I've heard that sometimes that Blue Sky stamp was applied so hard that it actually caused deformation of the bore on some of their rifles. Doesn't sound like that's the case with the OP's rifle though.
     

    BGDave

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    Could you tell me what a "Blue Sky" import is? I have never heard that term before and am curious.
    Thanks.
    Red is correct. They were imported from Korea and were well known turds. Korea used corrosive ammo. The rifles were often found re-parked. The one I bought had parkerizing inside the bore. Very hard to remove. Glad when that rascal got a new home. (fully disclosed to the buyer). He wanted it for the D-Day barrel date. 6-44
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Thanks for the info on "Blue Sky". I looked over the gun for all the places where Blue Sky was supposed to be stamped and can't find any markings so I think I am good there. I do think that the gun was a "Greek return" so no telling how it was treated there. In looking into the Cu-Ni fouling further I did run across this comment in an article on the NRA website.

    "Diamond Dust in Your Barrel: Like the formation of a diamond, heat and pressure can transform carbon fouling into a ceramic layer that is difficult to remove. Any excessive work required to remove this neglected accumulation of carbon fouling can cause damage to the bore and throat. “An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure,” means we should clean sooner and more often."
    I wonder if any of you have heard of this type of fouling and have any info/thoughts on it? The comment about it creating a "ceramic layer" also seems to fit with my problem because the fouling is so hard I cannot even scratch it. Either way, I think you all helped me determine that it is a wall hanger with the current barrel.
     
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