Remington Model 510 Stock finish/refinish?

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  • Luckyoldguy

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    I just got a Remington Model 510 .22cal, single shot, bolt action rifle. From the date code on the barrel it was made in September, 1947. I intend to sell it rather than keep it. The bluing appears original and in great shape except for a few tiny rust spots and I am not considering doing anything to the metal except standard clean-up and oiling. The stock finish appears to be original but near the butt it looks like it either was exposed to some heat or that some sort of solvent got on it. That portion has very noticeable wrinkling in a non-natural pattern over about 6 square inches on both sides of the stock. I am considering either trying to repair the damaged area or completely refinishing the stock with a linseed oil finish. I am concerned that working on or refinishing the stock could detract from the value. I am looking for opinions on whether I should work on the stock or leave it as-is? Any input would be appreciated.
     

    55fairlane

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    Those old 5-teen rifles are great guns, how ever they do not have huge collector value, so refinished the stock should not hurt the value any.

    Aaron
     

    halfmileharry

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    Is this one of the old TargetMaster rifles?
    I had one years ago (No clue where it is now. Maybe kids have it) that was a great shooter.
    Nothing fancy to look at but you didn't run across many rifles that would out shoot it.
    55fairlane is probably right that redoing it won't hurt the value but you might find the right buyer that wants it as it and all original.
    I'd probably leave it alone and leave it to the new buyer.
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Thanks for the input. I'm still really torn about what to do.
    Yes it is a TargetMaster. I keep reading good things about them but can't shoot because of a shoulder injury.
     

    Squirt239

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    What is it worth now? What is it worth after fixing the stock?

    To me, unless it's a highly sought after piece, you're not going to hurt it by fixing problems.

    Fix it. You'll be happy you did.
     

    natdscott

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    Are you GOOD at refinishing stocks?

    If not, leave it alone.

    Done well, it probably won't hurt a thing, but done poorly, it can turn away anybody with any kind of an eye for it. I would also recommend you do some research very carefully on what products to use...try to duplicate the factory finish if you can.

    I've worked on quite a few rimfire rifles of this age, incl. a couple 514s. They can be pretty nice walnut sometimes.

    -Nate
     

    Mongo59

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    I'll leave the decision making up to you as to fix or not but if you do fix it I have found tung oil will match/duplicate much better than blo, for what that is worth.
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Thanks for the input. I decided to give it a good cleaning and see how it turned out before doing anything else. When I cleaned it, the areas of the finish that were blemished/damaged came right off down to bare wood. This pretty much made the decision to refinish for me. I have refinished about 5 stocks but they were all milsurps that I was trying to clean up but keep as original and well used looking as possible. I used raw, unfiltered linseed oil from GarandGear and have been very happy with the result. The stock on this gun obviously requires a different look.

    I have tried to research as many different refinishing methods as possible and think that the real Tung oil finish with sanding between coats would give the best result. However, I don't think I can invest the long time it takes to complete this type of finish for this gun. I have used Formby's Furniture Refinisher in the past to remove the top coat but not the stain and/or grain filler on antiques in the past. I have used various top coats with varying results and been pretty happy with them. I was thinking of using the Formby's Refinisher on this stock and then giving it a few coats of Boiled Linseed Oil with sanding (probably 600 grit or finer wet/dry paper) in-between in order to achieve a satisfactory finish without have to spend the time required for a truly fine Tung oil finish. Any more thoughts would be appreciated. How about any of the non-real Tung oil mixtures that dry quicker than pure tung oil?
     

    natdscott

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    Since you asked...

    Remove all finish, use Whiting on the channel, and all the rest of the stock. BLOCK sand anywhere that needs it, and hand sand the rest...320 to 400 is fine for now.

    Use Laurel Mountain Forge pigment die stain in the color of your choosing. Allow to fully dry per directions.

    Apply Laurel Mountain's conditioner, per directions, then use a couple coats of Permalyn over the top of that, hand rubbed, on ALL exposed wood, and in the channel.

    Then, evaluate how it looks. I think you're going to be pleased.
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Yes I did ask. Thanks for responding.
    Took a quick look and am very interested and willing to give it a try. However, couldn't find any info on "Whiting". Could you tell me a little more about what it is and where I might find it.
    Thanks.
     

    natdscott

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    Not sure if this is the same type of Whiting that natdscott is referring to. https://www.delphiglass.com/lead-came-supplies/came-supplies/whiting-powder
    We use it in stained glass to make the putty to seal the glass to the came and to clean the glass. It is essentially ground chalk.

    See there?! Now I just learned something. Didn't know it was used/maybe came from the glass industry.

    Yes I did ask. Thanks for responding.
    Took a quick look and am very interested and willing to give it a try. However, couldn't find any info on "Whiting". Could you tell me a little more about what it is and where I might find it.
    Thanks.

    Well, so I can't guarantee it is the same thing as dudley linked above, but I get mine from Brownell's:

    https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-...strippers/old-fashioned-whiting-prod1133.aspx

    What it does is basically absorb all the old oils and solvents and Hoppes and old oil finishes OUT of the wood. You combine the whiting agent with a solvent like TCE, brush on a thick layer of the stuff, and let it sit. The solvent (obviously) dissolves the gunk, and the whiting drawwwwwws it out, where you can then brush/wipe/cake it all off.

    Here's a decent video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i31acWBV9zk


    The idea here is to bring the wood back down to JUST wood, and then apply pigment stain (I personally go with Maple or Lancaster Maple for that age of Remington's work, depending on how red I want it to be), finish sand for any small burrs (though the Laurel stains really do not raise much), and apply finish, be that wax, poly, oil-modified poly ("Permalyn"), acrylic, epoxy, etc.

    The Permalyn is going to give you a tough, semi-gloss finish. It has not been my experience that Permalyn is that awesome for later use of 4F pumice to bring it down to a dull finish, if that's what you're after.. It WILL work, it's just that the Permalyn never gets as hard as something like an acrylic or epoxy. But give it a couple weeks, and it'll work.

    Permalyn CAN be wet sanded with 600-1,000 grit to completely fill the grain, especially if you get some of the "Sealer", and start with that, or cut your "Finish" with it.

    Permalyn is not as easily repaired as a plain oil or wax finish, but is more easily repaired than a poly or acrylic or epoxy.

    If you want a nice satin, with easily-filled grain structure, some of the better waxes out there are sure nice; Laurel Mountain is one, but I've use Minwax' wax as well. Beautiful, beautiful finishes, but they will never really get to a high gloss (at least, I've never seen it).

    The very highest end satin finishes are epoxy or acrylic that is built up, and then cut back with 4F pumice and felt. Skill level on that kind of finish is fairly high, as is labor and time, because it has to be perfectly flat and smooth.


    -Nate
     
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    natdscott

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    Oh yeah (oh yeah).

    And if you are a fan of filling in small voids like knot holes, dings, etc. with clear glass, or with glass+sanding dust, or even wood glue, you need to be careful that your final finish will adhere to that surface.

    Permalyn seems to stick well, as does acrylic and epoxy, and wax seems to have no issue either. OILS, not so much.
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    Ok. This has officially changed from a look for quick answers to a learning experience. (That's assuming you can teach a 67 year old dog new tricks.) I really appreciate all the input. If it's not too much trouble, please keep it coming. I have ordered Permalyn sealer and gun stock finish from Midway (Brownells was out of stock). In the mean time I used Formby's furniture refinisher to remove the old finish but tried to leave the grain filled as much as possible (something the Permalyn instructions on their web site suggested). When I was finished, it revealed very nice walnut with just a very little bit of sap wood and minor imperfections. It looks very nice as-is so I think I have decided not to stain it. I have also decided to leave many of the small imperfections, man made and natural, to try and preserve some of the "character" of the original stock. After looking at the video on using the whiting and it mentioning that it had turned the wood (doesn't mention what kind of wood it is) very "blond" I am concerned about lightening to walnut too much. So, I have some questions:

    1) Since the original finish was something other than an oil finish, do you think the whiting is still necessary? If yes, do you have any idea if it will have a tendency to significantly lighten the walnut?

    2) I assume using the whiting to remove any oil in the stock is to insure that the new finish sticks well. Are there any other reasons?

    3) Since the wood looks so nice right now I am tempted to try the Permalyn finishes (with fine sanding between coats) without the whiting. If I do this and it doesn't stick or doesn't turn out well do you know of any reason I can't strip it all back off and start from scratch per your original recommendations?

    4) I do prefer a satin or "soft" finish. Were you saying I might achieve this by: a) Applying one of the waxes you mentioned right now without using the Permalyn finishes? or b) Finishing with the Permalyn first and then applying the wax? or c) Applying the Permalyn finishes, using the pumice to dull and then applying the wax?

    Sorry to ask so many questions but I appreciate the chance to learn from someone who obviously has been there and knows a lot more about it than I do.

    PS. Oh crap! Stained glass. Now that is something else I need to look into and learn about. Sounds interesting.
     

    lrdudley

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    If you want to pick up some whiting locally, give these people a call to see if it is in stock.
    [FONT=&quot]Merry Go Round
    Stained Glass Center
    8087 Castleton Road
    Indianapolis, IN 46250
    Phone: (317) 845-0915
    Email: merrygoroundglass1983@yahoo.com


    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&quot]

    Business Hours

    Monday-Friday:
    9:30 a.m. - 5:00 p.m.
    Saturday:
    9:30 a.m. - 4:00 p.m.
    It is a block or so behind the Speedway station on 82nd near I-69.
    Haven't done much glass in recent years, but it has been a fun hobby for 20 plus years.


    [/FONT]
     

    natdscott

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    1) Since the original finish was something other than an oil finish, do you think the whiting is still necessary? If yes, do you have any idea if it will have a tendency to significantly lighten the walnut?

    2) I assume using the whiting to remove any oil in the stock is to insure that the new finish sticks well. Are there any other reasons?

    3) Since the wood looks so nice right now I am tempted to try the Permalyn finishes (with fine sanding between coats) without the whiting. If I do this and it doesn't stick or doesn't turn out well do you know of any reason I can't strip it all back off and start from scratch per your original recommendations?

    4) I do prefer a satin or "soft" finish. Were you saying I might achieve this by: a) Applying one of the waxes you mentioned right now without using the Permalyn finishes? or b) Finishing with the Permalyn first and then applying the wax? or c) Applying the Permalyn finishes, using the pumice to dull and then applying the wax?

    1a) Probably not. Whiting will also help remove some old stains. If you clean it all up and strip it, and it doesn't appear to need oil/Hoppes pulled out, then I wouldn't go there.

    2a) Just appearance, especially if you want it to appear lighter-in-color than the original finish.

    3a) I don't know about stripping Permayln, but I imagine with stripper and then whiting, it could all be removed.

    4a) The hard wax finish like Minwax paste is a finish on it's own, and it may be your best bet. It is a REALLY easy way to a very nice satin sheen, and it fills nicely. The Permalyn is closer to a semigloss until you cut it....and speaking of, if you DO decide to go that route, shoot me a PM instead of buying a whole pound of 4F pumice. I'll NEVER get all mine used.

    Here's what I'd do: get a scrap piece of walnut, oak, something like that. Pine would even work. Sand it up to about 600 grit, and then apply both finishes adjacent to one another. You'll know pretty quickly which one you like. I'd post photos, but there's not really a good way to show gloss level.


    Tru-Oil and High-Gloss polyurethane are the only two finishes I ever really regretted.

    -Nate
     

    Luckyoldguy

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    irdudly: Thanks for the input and help. I decided not to go the whiting rout so I didn't pursue it with Merry Go Round but I will definitely keep them in mind for future projects. I live near there so will stop in next time I'm in the area and see what they are all about. Thanks for the tip.

    natdscott: Thank you very much for all of your help. I took your advice and tried some samples of 2 types of wax plus Permalyn on some scrap walnut (3 separate test samples, not one on top of the other). I liked all of them but decided on the Permalyn since it really jumped out and I had never used it before. Other than it being a little glossier than I prefer, I really liked the way it looked. Unfortunately, I never quite mastered the hand rubbing technique and always left a couple of places with too much build up where I overlapped from one area to the next that I didn't notice until it had dried. I really like the technique and think I can master it with some more practice. Since I was struggling to get a really good final coat I decided to give it a light block sanding with 600 grit and then applied 2 coats of Minwax wax. Although a long way from a perfect job I think it turned out very well and am happy with the result. I learned a lot and hopefully will get better on future projects. I tried to take some pictures but that is another skill I haven't mastered and couldn't come up with any that came close to representing the real thing. I'll keep trying and post something if I succeed. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience. Again, I really appreciate it. I will PM you if I decide to try the pumice on a future project.
     
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