Bubba'd up Carcano sight

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  • Ark

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    Bought this at what felt like a fair price but now feels like a complete ripoff. Carcano cavalry carbine in 6.5 Carcano, generally good shape except with this funky ghost ring sight in place of the rear notch. Seemed solid enough, and I actually thought it was kinda neat on a short carbine so I didn't walk away from the sale.

    Well, I shot the thing later in the day and it was hitting 10 inches right at 50 yards. Go to do some windage adjustment and find out just how bad Bubba ****ed up the job. Both holes drilled in random places with a hand drill, too close together to allow any meaningful adjustment, and the holes stripped out by Bubba over-torquing his crappy handiwork. I now have a gun that I can't shoot.

    https://i.imgur.com/I5W4Yh0.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/HN97dbS.jpg

    I was able to locate this sight, which is a fixed sight for the 7.65 version of the rifle. It appears as though Bubba just router'd himself a slot for the ghost ring.

    https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=8484&idcategory=28

    Installing it would involve figuring out how to remove the front sight base as well as the complete rear sight assembly, and I'm not sure where it would wind up printing. There is limited front windage adjustment available.

    Any ideas for potential solutions? Would be open to other aftermarket fixes.
     

    Wolfhound

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    Well, I can't offer a fix but I can tell you that all stock Carcano rifles shoot high. Like, really high. I own both a carbine and an Infantry style long rifle. There were probably hundreds if not thousands of Allied soldiers walking around after the war thanking God that Italy didn't know how to produce good rifle sights. If you take the rifle back to stock condition it will almost certainly shoot high, that's why Bubba worked it over with a hammer to begin with.

    Some say the Italians had a different way of training soldiers to look down the sights. Rather than line up the front sight even with the rear sight they would place the top of the front sight at the bottom of the notch of the rear sight. It's goofy but its the only way I can get my Carcano's on the paper.

    Best of luck to you. :ingo:
     

    churchmouse

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    Well, I can't offer a fix but I can tell you that all stock Carcano rifles shoot high. Like, really high. I own both a carbine and an Infantry style long rifle. There were probably hundreds if not thousands of Allied soldiers walking around after the war thanking God that Italy didn't know how to produce good rifle sights. If you take the rifle back to stock condition it will almost certainly shoot high, that's why Bubba worked it over with a hammer to begin with.

    Some say the Italians had a different way of training soldiers to look down the sights. Rather than line up the front sight even with the rear sight they would place the top of the front sight at the bottom of the notch of the rear sight. It's goofy but its the only way I can get my Carcano's on the paper.

    Best of luck to you. :ingo:

    My Carcono was the same way. It was just as you say.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    Well, I can't offer a fix but I can tell you that all stock Carcano rifles shoot high. Like, really high. I own both a carbine and an Infantry style long rifle. There were probably hundreds if not thousands of Allied soldiers walking around after the war thanking God that Italy didn't know how to produce good rifle sights. If you take the rifle back to stock condition it will almost certainly shoot high, that's why Bubba worked it over with a hammer to begin with.

    Some say the Italians had a different way of training soldiers to look down the sights. Rather than line up the front sight even with the rear sight they would place the top of the front sight at the bottom of the notch of the rear sight. It's goofy but its the only way I can get my Carcano's on the paper.

    Best of luck to you. :ingo:

    Battle sight zero on military rifles are generally 200 to 300 yards..
     

    Wolfhound

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    Battle sight zero on military rifles are generally 200 to 300 yards..

    I own Mausers, 1903 Springfields, Enfields, Arisaka, Garands, Steyrs, MAS36, Berthier, Nagants and Carcano's. The Carcano sights are the only odd balls and shoot extremely high. Maybe a 500 yard zero. Lol
     

    halfmileharry

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    What do you figure? Weld bead down each hold, file the top flat, redrill on a drill press in the right spots and source new screws?

    I'd contact a competent smith for advice on this.
    I'm a fair welder and machinist so I'd do MY OWN but I wouldn't do anyone else's firearm.
    I have seen repairs like this using what I'll assume is JB weld and they've held up fine.
    It doesn't seem to be a huge problem as far as I can see.
    I'd think the repairs would most likely be hidden when completed and reassembled.
     

    Herr Vogel

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    At least Bubba had the decency to grind on a replaceable part instead of the barrel or receiver.
    Personally, I'd see about taking it apart first; from what I can tell the Front Sight Base is held in place by a set screw hidden underneath the dovetail.
     

    Clay Pigeon

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    I own Mausers, 1903 Springfields, Enfields, Arisaka, Garands, Steyrs, MAS36, Berthier, Nagants and Carcano's. The Carcano sights are the only odd balls and shoot extremely high. Maybe a 500 yard zero. Lol


    And they had reasons for that..

    The only fault that one might level against the 6.5 X 52 as a military
    > cartridge is that it had relatively humane terminal ballistics. The very
    > long, blunt nosed bullet coupled with the fast twist rate of the gun
    > resulted in a bullet that was very stable with a very high resistance to
    > tumbling. The cartridge was known to have inflicted many ?through and
    > through? wounds, just leaving a small wound channel. The bullet
    > typically would not tumble inside its? target unless it encountered
    - show quoted text -
    > received a reputation as being a ?weak? design. Nothing could be
    > further from the truth. The Italians made a small run of Carcanos early in
    > WW II chambered for 8 X 57 JS. The Germans rechambered some Carcanos to 8
    > X 57 JS late in WW II. These rifles were also proofed for this cartridge.
    > The CIP minimum suggested proof pressure for the 8 x 57 JS cartridge is
    > 73,500 psi. I hardly call this a weak action.
    >
    > ____________________________________________________________
    >
    > The Italians apparently realized that a 300-meter battle zero was a bit
    > impractical and with the introduction of the M38 models went to a 200
    > meter battle zero. This zero results in a maximum height of trajectory of
    > 5.5? ? 6.5? at a range of approximately 100 yards, depending on
    > barrel length. With this sight setting, by simply holding on the middle of
    > the torso, it would have been hard to miss the target out to about 220
    > meters. The Carcano?s also used a unique sight picture. The proper sight
    > picture for regulated sights on a Carcano is with the front sight in the
    > very bottom of the rear sight groove. This is how the Italian army manuals
    > instructed that the sights be used. Potentially, this would allow for two
    > battle sight settings. The normal use as mentioned above would be a 200
    > meter zero. Using the Mauser sighting method, the front sight level with
    > the rear sight, would result in a zero of 330 ? 350 meters. This is
    > about the maximum range practical for attempting to engage a target with
    > iron sights. I contend with the Carcano the Italians had a very
    > intelligent approach for a battle rifle. The fixed sights were basically
    > fool proof. The Italians must have realized with the M38 models that
    > nearly all small arms engagements occurred inside of 200 meters. The fixed
    > sights with a 200 meter zero would have been fool proof for a soldier
    > under stress, who was probably a poor judge of distance to begin with. The
    > soldier would have had to do nothing but point and shoot at the middle of
    > his enemy for ranges out to 220 ? 230 meters. How much more simple and
    > effective could it have been made.
     

    Wolfhound

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    Ah, I see. The weird sight picture is something that the Italians actually taught. With the front sight at the bottom of the rear sight grove. I find it really difficult to use in that fashion but if I had been trained that way from the start things may be different. Thanks for the info.
     

    Ark

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    At least Bubba had the decency to grind on a replaceable part instead of the barrel or receiver.
    Personally, I'd see about taking it apart first; from what I can tell the Front Sight Base is held in place by a set screw hidden underneath the dovetail.

    What I've read so far indicates that the front and rear sight bases are also soldered on.

    I am going to have an attempt at installing a new 7.65 rear sight. The part appears to be the exact same. I'll just stamp "6.5" into it, if it works out.
     
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    Squirt239

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    I would (if necessary) drill and tap the existing holes for a long set screw. Install said set screw with green loctite, then file flush with base. Let it sit and set up. Peen the edges of the set screw. Then drill and tap the correct holes in the correct orientation.
     

    Thor

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    IIRK the sight was set for the troop to shoot center of mass. This was intended to be a head shot at 100yds, an upper body shot at 200yds and a lower body / leg shot at 300yds.

    When the Fins got the 7.35mm version SAKO shortened the front sight to a 100yd zero. I have a Winter War version.
     

    Ark

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    The front blade appears to have been changed out for what I'm guessing is a taller sight. Assuming the rear swap works, I'll see where it prints and maybe file that guy down to something like a 100 yard zero.
     

    Wolfhound

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    The front blade appears to have been changed out for what I'm guessing is a taller sight. Assuming the rear swap works, I'll see where it prints and maybe file that guy down to something like a 100 yard zero.

    The taller front sight may be a good thing. You can possibly use it with the traditional sighting method we have all been taught at 50 and 100 yards. Using the Italian method and burying the top of the front sight in the rear sight grove makes it very easy to lose the front sight completely. Or, at least it does for me. I realize we are not all the same and my eyes aren't what they use to be.

    Please let us know how your Carcano shoots once you get the sights straightened out.
     

    Ark

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    The taller front sight may be a good thing. You can possibly use it with the traditional sighting method we have all been taught at 50 and 100 yards. Using the Italian method and burying the top of the front sight in the rear sight grove makes it very easy to lose the front sight completely. Or, at least it does for me. I realize we are not all the same and my eyes aren't what they use to be.

    Please let us know how your Carcano shoots once you get the sights straightened out.

    Yeah, I'm hoping so, either hitting low so it can be filed down or just not hitting as sky-high as Carcanos were sighted to do.

    New rear sight is due in tomorrow. The pin is missing from the current one so I'm not sure whether it's been broken loose and removed before. Kinda hoping I won't have to use the torch on it.
     

    Wolfhound

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    Yeah, I'm hoping so, either hitting low so it can be filed down or just not hitting as sky-high as Carcanos were sighted to do.

    New rear sight is due in tomorrow. The pin is missing from the current one so I'm not sure whether it's been broken loose and removed before. Kinda hoping I won't have to use the torch on it.
    Thanks for the update Ark. :yesway:
     
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