Metallurgist Fact Checking Please

[Trapper Jim]

I’ve been seeing slide failures more of late and in research of manufacturers, I see many will not say forged steel. I see things like “milled from a block” or “machined in house”. So how does a consumer really know he is paying for a forging?

 

[russc2542]

Is this with stock guns or custom/aftermarket? price point, duty-grade, premium? any particular model?

Easiest way is probably to ask the maker.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Is this with stock guns or custom/aftermarket? price point, duty-grade, premium? any particular model?

Easiest way is probably to ask the maker.

all across the spectrum. Cast frames have been around for awhile but I’m not sure about all slides?

 

[ashby koss]

i'm not a metallurgist... BUT

my company makes very long lasting machines. We use castings in critical areas for a few reasons. Impact and vibration dampening is a big thing that non-forged metal just doesn't compare. These properties of castings could very well make a difference in handgun longevity.

At the same time, a bad casting, which is very hard to analyze, can have an internal void or weakness that could cause failure exceptionally quick, far before a hot / cold rolled and milled cousin.

 

[55fairlane]

Forged vs cast vs milled (machined) from a block & metallurgy are way different things.
A) the particular grade of steel & shape of the part is the only first part of the puzzle to determine if forged/ cast or machined from a block is appropriate.
B) no matter if forged/ cast/or machined from a block proper heat treat is necessary to keep the part from failure.
C) proper grade of steel/steel alloy must be used.

Aaron

 

[russc2542]

Forged vs cast vs milled (machined) from a block & metallurgy are way different things.
A) the particular grade of steel & shape of the part is the only first part of the puzzle to determine if forged/ cast or machined from a block is appropriate.
B) no matter if forged/ cast/or machined from a block proper heat treat is necessary to keep the part from failure.
C) proper grade of steel/steel alloy must be used.

Aaron

Going with the OP's scope (or lack thereof), I'd agree that there are several more important things than simply cast vs forged. Alloy, temper/heat treat, dimensions, design, etc matter as much or more than cast vs forged.

There are certain applications that one manufacture method may be more or less appropriate. Though many places one could design around it by changing dimensions or shapes.

Forge pot-metal in the wrong shape and improperly heat treat and it won't even leave the mold. Properly cast in an appropriate alloy, heat treat and the part will last forever. Design in stress focus points or too narrow a dimension along the stressed axis and no manufacturing method will save it.

 

[KokomoDave]

Not a metallurgist, just a dum millwright and armorer. I'm not in favor of a MIM part in any gun. I've seen too many fail like an extractor, hammer and sear. No thank you. Please pass the forged part and mill. Shot peen it and proper heat treat. Thank you!

 

[churchmouse]

Not a metallurgist, just a dum millwright and armorer. I'm not in favor of a MIM part in any gun. I've seen too many fail like an extractor, hammer and sear. No thank you. Please pass the forged part and mill. Shot peen it and proper heat treat. Thank you!

​"BINGO"

 

[bigretic]

One of my very best friends is a top metallurgist in the country. If you have a photo i'd be happy to show it to him and he will tell you what the problem with the steel is.

 

[Nazgul]

Maybe it is because they are using plastic holsters and damaging the slides!!

Don

 

[Trapper Jim]

Maybe it is because they are using plastic holsters and damaging the slides!!

Don

You might be on to something as I have cracked no slides or frames in a godzillion number of rounds in any of my semi autos, however I don't use those sissy magazine loaders either so there is that.

 

[Trapper Jim]

This from Sig...

Thank you for contacting SIG Sauer customer service.

All of our slides are made of heat treated stainless which is CNC cut from billet steel. Any information beyond this is considered to be proprietary, and not something I would have access to I’m afraid.

Hope this helps Jim!

Best regards.



So Stainless Billet is cast or forged?

 

[indyartisan]

Interesting article on Cast/Forged/Billet
Billet? Cast? Forged? What does that mean?

 

[Twangbanger]

This from Sig...

Thank you for contacting SIG Sauer customer service.

All of our slides are made of heat treated stainless which is CNC cut from billet steel. Any information beyond this is considered to be proprietary, and not something I would have access to I’m afraid.

Hope this helps Jim!

Best regards.



So Stainless Billet is cast or forged?

This is interesting, because at one time the P22x series slides were being stamped, on the earlier models. Their manufacturing capacity over their facilities must have changed over the years to allow them to go to all-up machining. Nice to see that. Once you have the equipment, might as well use it.

But as a couple earlier posters correctly pointed out, this question is not really just metallurgy, it is also a 3-way interaction between the design/form factor, materials, and the process used to form them. Putting more safety margin on one of those elements gives you more room to deviate in the others.

This will start a kerfluffle with the OFs (Old Farts), but in the right application, I will take a precision-manufactured MIM part over a machined part blacksmithed on a mill by a payroll employee any day. Not every factory employee has the time to lovingly blacksmith a part the way you do in your Garage with your personal TV on while trying to get away from Momma. There is a lot of part variation in those methods in a factory, and many of the guns thus manufactured (we'll leave the names out) break parts routinely, and most specimens of a certain age have all been back to the factory, sometimes multiple visits.

Aaaand...go:

 

[Trapper Jim]

This is interesting, because at one time the P22x series slides were being stamped, on the earlier models. Their manufacturing capacity over their facilities must have changed over the years to allow them to go to all-up machining. Nice to see that. Once you have the equipment, might as well use it.

But as a couple earlier posters correctly pointed out, this question is not really just metallurgy, it is also a 3-way interaction between the design/form factor, materials, and the process used to form them. Putting more safety margin on one of those elements gives you more room to deviate in the others.

This will start a kerfluffle with the OFs (Old Farts), but in the right application, I will take a precision-manufactured MIM part over a machined part blacksmithed on a mill by a payroll employee any day. Not every factory employee has the time to lovingly blacksmith a part the way you do in your Garage with your personal TV on while trying to get away from Momma. There is a lot of part variation in those methods in a factory, and many of the guns thus manufactured (we'll leave the names out) break parts routinely, and most specimens of a certain age have all been back to the factory, sometimes multiple visits.

Aaaand...go:

You will not get an argument from this OF on this. Some of the MIM I see within the last year or so is solid, fantastic and much more consistent than when introduced years ago. Owning and growing up with dropped forged parts only I recently purchased new 3 Semi autos and 4 revolvers filled with MIM and have been giving them a workout with no problems this year. tuning is easier and takes less time. When we get past Covid and I start competition again, I plan on using these new guns with MIM. Back to slide/frame material, I do love the properties/rust resistant Stainless but I still love drop forged carbon steel. When stainless came out in revolvers, I noticed that in dryfiring I could feel and hear (back when I could hear) the solid difference when the hammer hit the frame. Just me I guess. Now, just like MIM has been improved, so has casting. Ruger certainly has came a long way with what and how they cast. All my Ruger's are good guns for the money and have seen godzillions of rounds, but the lock work and density that I have in my Real Model P's feel better to shoot. They are an art form, where the Ruger's are more industrial. The question still unanswered is does SIG forge or cast in NH, or does their supplier forge or cast the billets. Only asking as I have witnessed SIG slide failures more common than other makers and according to the forum and others so has other users.

Thank you for viewing.

 

[Alamo]

Interesting article on Cast/Forged/Billet
Billet? Cast? Forged? What does that mean?

That was a good read.

 

[romack991]

This from Sig...
All of our slides are made of heat treated stainless which is CNC cut from billet steel. Any information beyond this is considered to be proprietary, and not something I would have access to I’m afraid.

So Stainless Billet is cast or forged?

The question still unanswered is does SIG forge or cast in NH, or does their supplier forge or cast the billets.

Billet is bar stock which is extruded and rolled. From that information, it's impossible to know how much work has been put into it, what heat treat process it goes through, and most importantly, what strength and ductility is needed for the specific design. As other's mentioned, it's not appropriate to judge a manufacturing process as better or worse than any other. They all have their benefits and limitations. It comes down to how the product was engineered and quality controlled.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Billet is bar stock which is extruded and rolled. From that information, it's impossible to know how much work has been put into it, what heat treat process it goes through, and most importantly, what strength and ductility is needed for the specific design. As other's mentioned, it's not appropriate to judge a manufacturing process as better or worse than any other. They all have their benefits and limitations. It comes down to how the product was engineered and quality controlled.

So where does one start when a manufacturer is having a higher than normal fail? I remember S&W had a recall on getting some bad steel for its cylinder production and it ended in a recall. Same with the auto industry. When a manufacturer quickly and quietly keeps eating the repair....makes one wonder??

 

[romack991]

So where does one start when a manufacturer is having a higher than normal fail?

By avoiding either the specific model or if it spans multiple product lines, then you might want to avoid the manufacturer.

Think of casting, forging, and machined from billet as modes of transportation. You can ride on a train, drive in a car, fly in a plane. Let's pretend one car manufacturer poorly designs an engine and it breaks down. It would be inaccurate to say riding in a train is better because this one model of car broke down, therefore, driving in a car is not a good mode of transportation. Poor designs or quality control happen. Some times its isolated to a specific model, some times its the manufacturer. But if done properly, any of the manufacturing processes are capable of producing quality product.