Going beyond defensive shooting

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  • Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 29, 2016
    1,232
    12
    Bloomington
    I have 3 firearms i rotate through that i carry everyday, and with all those firearms i can confidently hit center mass quickly from short distances. however moving beyond 15 yards it doesnt seem to matter what type of handgun im shooting. it feels like im practically guessing even if im holding in the same place through an entire magazine it seems to be completely random where my bullet prints, if it prints at all. its becoming more frustrating as ive been going out every weekend for practice and have not noticed any improvement. i practice breathing, posture, trigger control and am sure i am gripping correctly. how can i break this 15 yard plateau.. im swallowing a pride pill here admitting im an awful shot in hopes someone can explain to me what im doing wrong and hopefully improve my level of marksmanship.:(
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 29, 2016
    1,232
    12
    Bloomington
    Yes, i have a snub nose S@W .22 that i cant hit puddle underwater with, and a walther p22 that i cant shoot past 10 yards with, i often practice dry firing with my .45 through out the day. i feel as though my trigger control is excellent and the pistol stays on target through the pull

    and i am right hand/right eye dominant
     

    Hop

    Grandmaster
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    16   0   0
    Jan 21, 2008
    5,084
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    Indy
    Focus on the front sight, then focus on the front sight and then focus on the front sight.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
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    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
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    im swallowing a pride pill here admitting im an awful shot in hopes someone can explain to me what im doing wrong and hopefully improve my level of marksmanship.:(

    They can. They probably can't over the Internet. Time to find a quality trainer and spend a few hours with someone who can watch you shoot, diagnose what's going on, and give you things to work on to improve those issues.

    Depending on what you mean by "short distances", then fundamentals aren't required. Simply sticking the gun in the general direction and pulling the trigger will get "center mass" hits. As distances open up, proper grip, reducing anticipation, smooth trigger press (as in not staging the trigger and then shoving at the gun), hard front sight focus, and concentration come in to play. Once you've got some training and practice under your belt, you'll start to be able to call your shots. In short, you'll know where you hit before you see the target.

    As an example:

    20160809_121704_zpse4otqtxv.jpg


    These are 2" circles I shot at today at 15y at the end of a practice session. I'd already done the same at 7 yards and then worked some other drills, so I was already a bit fatigued. #1 is shot nearly clean, with one shoved out as I flinched a tiny bit as the guy in the next stall fired. As my concentration diminished, you can see the groups open up. #2 is ok, but I rushed some shots. #3 is nearly all high because I jacked up my sight picture and shot to the dot instead of the top of the front sight blade. #4 and #6 show some anticipation, shoving at the gun to control recoil before the gun actually fire. #5 isn't horrid, just the gun moving around as I was tired by then. You have to learn to call your shots (knowing where the impact was from your sight picture when the shot broke) and then you can diagnose yourself like this. That takes some training and practice, though.

    7 yard target at the beginning of the day:

    20160809_120345_zpslkdbbhtx.jpg
     

    hpclayto

    Expert
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    22   0   1
    Nov 8, 2008
    1,332
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    Sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control. Try the dime drill when you dry fire. Balance a dime on your front sight and perform a trigger press without knocking it off. As you get better you can up it to a nickel, quarter etc... Great, cheap easy way to improve your shooting.
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 29, 2016
    1,232
    12
    Bloomington
    Sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control. Try the dime drill when you dry fire. Balance a dime on your front sight and perform a trigger press without knocking it off. As you get better you can up it to a nickel, quarter etc... Great, cheap easy way to improve your shooting.

    Wow. Really cool drill. Me and my shooting buddy have been standinf by kitchen table for awhile now trying to do this.
     

    Hopper

    Master
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    31   0   0
    Nov 6, 2013
    2,291
    83
    Hamilton County
    OP, I hear you loud and clear. When I first started shooting (I'm still relatively new to this compared to a lot of the gang on here for sure), I had a horrible time with flinching, trigger control, grip, sight alignment, the whole bit.

    I invested in a LaserLyte target several years ago, and it's been the best accessory investment I've made. It's easy to turn your basement into a range on rainy days, and now I don't waste $$ on ammo when I go to the range. Through practice, some helpful YouTube videos regarding the basics, and numerous posts here on INGO, I now have pretty good trigger control. While I'm no expert marksman by any means, I generally hit what I'm aiming for... not always a bulls-eye, but I'm on target enough to ring steel from a respectable distance.

    It might seem like a salty investment at first, the LaserLyte target and then the caliber laser cartridges you'll be shooting, but IMHO, it's $$ very well spent. To be fair, the "coin" method mentioned above is also a GREAT idea. But the LaserLyte method lets you see where your shots are landing, which has been really helpful for me. It sort of builds muscle memory to the point that I no longer flinch in anticipation of the "bang"... I look forward to the "bang".
     

    Opie

    Sharpshooter
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    61   0   0
    Feb 2, 2013
    525
    12
    Evansville
    From my personal experience (of missing the target on a regular basis) I would like to recommend you stop shooting three different weapon systems. The triggers on those guns are vastly different and it is probably not helping your training.

    As the other guys are saying, front sight focus and trigger control. Try some ball and dummy drills to see if you have a flinch. I have a very consistent flinch, so if I do flinch they go into a nice group low and left. I have seen other people flinch and send them all over the place. It is something you will have to train through. At 15 yards I still tend to pull 5-10% of my shots a few inches low left and I have been shooting the same gun for a long time.
     

    Onionsanddragons

    Marksman
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    8   0   0
    Apr 13, 2014
    158
    18
    Terre Haute
    If you are serious, drop the carry rotation. Pick a service sized weapon and a deep concealment weapon; preferably from the same "family." Such as a Glock 19/17 and a Glock 26 or even 43, or a M&P and M&Pc, etc. Mag compatibility is a bonus, but as much consistency between grips and trigger mechanisms/action types, grip, sights etc. is the goal.

    Or you can make a decision to just put 2 in the safe and leave em there for a minimum of 6 months.

    Develop decent on-demand performance with one gun. Start with a real goal or benchmark. My suggested starting point is the Givens baseline: put 3 effective hits on a target from concealment at a distance of 3 paces in under 3 seconds. I say this because it is achievable and being able to do it on demand will put you on the good side of the curve in a big portion of possible bad situations.

    A good way to ensure you hit a milestone like that is to buy a couple hours of coaching from a good shooter to teach/tweak your fundamentals. You don't need a NavySEALJSOCDEVGRUCAGNINJA or even someone with a defensive background. You honestly probably want a solid competition shooter with some teaching experience. You don't need tactics at this point. You need someone that can shoot well, knows what good shooting is and looks like, and can teach or help you refine technique to practice properly. This will be way better $$$ spent than laser guns or the 5-10 boxes of ammo it would cost ya.
     

    cobber

    Parrot Daddy
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    43   0   0
    Sep 14, 2011
    10,225
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    Somewhere over the rainbow
    From my personal experience (of missing the target on a regular basis) I would like to recommend you stop shooting three different weapon systems. The triggers on those guns are vastly different and it is probably not helping your training.

    As the other guys are saying, front sight focus and trigger control. Try some ball and dummy drills to see if you have a flinch. I have a very consistent flinch, so if I do flinch they go into a nice group low and left. I have seen other people flinch and send them all over the place. It is something you will have to train through. At 15 yards I still tend to pull 5-10% of my shots a few inches low left and I have been shooting the same gun for a long time.

    :+1:
     

    Hop

    Grandmaster
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    16   0   0
    Jan 21, 2008
    5,084
    83
    Indy
    The dime drill is what I started with years ago. It helps you focus on the front sight. Try it using a double action pistol. If you have black sights, place a small white paint mark on it too. Gives you something to concentrate on.
     

    cedartop

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Apr 25, 2010
    6,687
    113
    North of Notre Dame.
    If you are serious, drop the carry rotation. Pick a service sized weapon and a deep concealment weapon; preferably from the same "family." Such as a Glock 19/17 and a Glock 26 or even 43, or a M&P and M&Pc, etc. Mag compatibility is a bonus, but as much consistency between grips and trigger mechanisms/action types, grip, sights etc. is the goal.

    Or you can make a decision to just put 2 in the safe and leave em there for a minimum of 6 months.

    Develop decent on-demand performance with one gun. Start with a real goal or benchmark. My suggested starting point is the Givens baseline: put 3 effective hits on a target from concealment at a distance of 3 paces in under 3 seconds. I say this because it is achievable and being able to do it on demand will put you on the good side of the curve in a big portion of possible bad situations.

    A good way to ensure you hit a milestone like that is to buy a couple hours of coaching from a good shooter to teach/tweak your fundamentals. You don't need a NavySEALJSOCDEVGRUCAGNINJA or even someone with a defensive background. You honestly probably want a solid competition shooter with some teaching experience. You don't need tactics at this point. You need someone that can shoot well, knows what good shooting is and looks like, and can teach or help you refine technique to practice properly. This will be way better $$$ spent than laser guns or the 5-10 boxes of ammo it would cost ya.

    QFT.

    As a beginner baseline I really like the 5X5 drill. 5 rounds, 5 seconds, from 5 yards on a 5 inch circle. After this use something like Tom's 3M drill to emphasize manipulations.
     

    BE Mike

    Grandmaster
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    18   0   0
    Jul 23, 2008
    7,536
    113
    New Albany
    I have 3 firearms i rotate through that i carry everyday, and with all those firearms i can confidently hit center mass quickly from short distances. however moving beyond 15 yards it doesnt seem to matter what type of handgun im shooting. it feels like im practically guessing even if im holding in the same place through an entire magazine it seems to be completely random where my bullet prints, if it prints at all. its becoming more frustrating as ive been going out every weekend for practice and have not noticed any improvement. i practice breathing, posture, trigger control and am sure i am gripping correctly. how can i break this 15 yard plateau.. im swallowing a pride pill here admitting im an awful shot in hopes someone can explain to me what im doing wrong and hopefully improve my level of marksmanship.:(
    Practicing is no good, if you practice the same mistakes. As a matter of fact, it can ingrain bad habits, which have to be broken before the correct techniques are learned. IMHO, you need to get some literature that describes the fundamentals of marksmanship. Although it is old, Gil Hebard's "Pistol Shooter's Treasury" has some great articles by some top shooters in their day. If you live close to a club with bullseye shooters, you might get someone with an expert or master classification to coach you. The Pistol Shooter's Treasury by Gil Hebard Second Edition Competition Shooting | eBay
     
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 29, 2016
    1,232
    12
    Bloomington
    A lot of awesome advice. I will see about the laserlyte system as my only consitent range time is at buddys property on sunday. It sucks not have a real range in bloomington. I appreciate everyones input and will be seeking a teacher near me. Unfortunatly money is a factor.
     

    BehindBlueI's

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    29   0   0
    Oct 3, 2012
    25,890
    113
    A lot of awesome advice. I will see about the laserlyte system as my only consitent range time is at buddys property on sunday. It sucks not have a real range in bloomington. I appreciate everyones input and will be seeking a teacher near me. Unfortunatly money is a factor.

    Money usually is, but it's better to spend a bit and enforce good habits then spend time and money reinforcing bad ones. A diagnostics session is well worth the investment.
     
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