New Beretta M9 Frame Wear - Anyone Else Seen This Kind of Wear on a New Pistol?

[JAL]

New Beretta M9 Frame Wear - Anyone Else Seen This Kind of Wear?

I'm planning on calling Beretta USA later today, but wanted to post these for any thoughts on what is causing this.

Bought a new Beretta M9 two weeks ago. Just went to third range trip Saturday morning. It's had no more than 400 rounds through it. The numbers are approximate, give or take a few rounds:

• 30 rounds Fiocchi 124 grain JHP
• 15 rounds Magtech 124 grain JHP
• 50 rounds Remington 147 grain FMJ
• 50 rounds Winchester 147 grain FMJ
• 220 rounds Winchester 124 grain NATO FMJ

None of these are +P although NATO ball is a little hotter than most non-NATO 124 grain FMJ. Shot the JHP to test and ensure proper hollow point ammunition feed.

Started field stripping it for cleaning after third trip to range, as I had done with the first two trips. This time, after I took the recoil spring and guide rod out and wiped them down I noticed small metal chips on the barrel. After investigating further, I put all the cleaning materials away, and started documenting it with photos.

It's disconcerting to see metal chips and shavings as it indicates there's either galling or one part is grinding and/or milling another part, which should not be occurring, not in any firearm I've ever owned or handled. The moving parts should be polishing each other smooth, which is definitely not occurring here. I cannot help but think something's out of dimensional specifications (slide, barrel, or frame). I would hate to think there's a metallurgical problem. Obviously the frame is the softer alloy compared to the slide, barrel and locking block and if anything gives where they mate, it will be the frame. Generating metal chips and shavings cannot possibly be "normal".

Because this M9 was brand new, after each of the prior cleanings I had used some Hoppe's #9 oil on the slide rails, and on the barrel's flanges and the frame rails on which they ride, wiping off the excess leaving a very thin film afterward.

Any thoughts on what the cause is would be helpful . . . galling . . . parts out of dimensional spec . . . something else (??).

Thanks
John

What I saw on the barrel after removing the guide rod and recoil spring, before removing the barrel from the slide . . .

Took the barrel with locking block out and examined it finding more metal chips on both sides. It also appears the sides of the barrel flanges fore and aft of the locking block may be galling the alloy frame grooves.

Left side of barrel and locking block . . .

Right side of barrel and locking block with more small metal chips . . .

A look inside the frame reveals the frame wear and the first surprise with something in the slide or barrel peening the frame on one side and having chipped a corner off the frame on the other side. A small part of the abrasion on the frame from the barrel flanges can bee seen as well.

There's more metal chips and debris inside the frame . . . and the abrasion on the rails from the barrel flanges is quite visible. The chipped and peened frame corners are also visible here.

A look down inside the frame where the barrel flanges fore and aft of the locking block ride shows the major source of the metal chips as the barrel is galling or grinding away the frame. This is the left side, and the surface may be shiny, but it's not being polished smooth. A relatively large chip of metal seen on top of the frame to the right.

The right side is similar . . .

Looking down into the frame groove under the barrel breech had me looking at the barrel again. This is the left side of the barrel, and the beveled end of the flange is scraping up metal from the frame.

Also noticed the upper edge of the barrel breech is being peened by the slide breech when the slide goes into battery. I do not drop the slide on an empty chamber as it's hard on the breech. There's a better photo of this later.

The beveled edge of this flange is scraping metal off the frame as can seen here in the left side of the frame . . . matching the left side of the barrel above.

The right side is similar, with the barrel having retained more frame metal on this side than the other. You will note the barrel is dirty as I stopped cleaning to investigate the extent of frame galling and abrasion.

Right side of frame shows similar accumulation of shavings being pushed there by the barrel flange . . .

Last, but not least, is what I'm suspecting may be some of the cause . . . the edge of the barrel on the left side is being peened and gouged by the slide when it goes into battery with the barrel. Note that I do not "drop the slide" into battery by using the slide release or slingshotting it without a round or at least a snap cap in the chamber (or in a magazine) to absorb the impact.

Thanks for looking and thanks in advance for any helpful comments or observations.

John

 

[Bigtanker]

Did you give it a through cleaning when you brought it home from the gun store before your first range trip?

 

[JAL]

Did you give it a through cleaning when you brought it home from the gun store before your first range trip?

Yes . . .
Field stripped it, wiped excess oil off various parts using clean rags (old white t-shirts), swabbed down bore with bore cleaner, then put very thin surface film of oil on the contact points of sliding parts (slide and barrel rails). There is no barrel bushing. Shouldn't need much more than that so long as the rags and swabs are clean. The only thing showing any grime on the swabs was the bore, the first couple of which had black on them as one might expect after firing just a handful of rounds.

This one was similar to a new RIA M1911A1 and Sig P238. Came with an overabundance of oil slowly oozing out of various places. Too much oil attracts crudmium and becomes a grinding compound.

John

 

[rvb]

doesn't look horrible to me. probably broken-in well now. clean it. use a better lube (I always used mobile-1 synth on my m9s w/o fail) and lots of it (no need to wipe to a thin film). then shoot it.

hard to tell what we're looking at from the pictures. some of what you're calling bits of metal look like unburnt powder flakes. some could be bits of brass, etc.

the worst pic is the 4th showing the "chipped" rail. but note, during re-assembly the back of the slide could have done that, too.

beretta's "painted on" black finish isn't the most durable. the wear points really show through.

-rvb

 

[rvb]

Too much oil attracts crudmium and becomes a grinding compound.

I found the berettas liked to be run wet.
Put somewhere between 150-200k rounds through various m9 variants over the years. Never worried about oil attracting crud... heck, never cleaned them w/ less than 5k rounds through them, usually much more. just added a few drops of oil to the lugs from the top of the slide and went shooting...

-rvb

 

[teddy12b]

Maybe I'm missing something in the pictures, but that looks like normal wear and tear on a gun that's steel on steel, or aluminum on steel etc. At 400 rounds you're going to start seeing the finish disappear in places and the shiny silver spots from wear and use are going to show up. There's been guns in the past where I've found the slightest little burr here or there and I've touched it up with either a fine file, or a sharpening stone. That kind of small time stuff is a pain in the rear and I don't think you should have to do it, but it's better than going through the hassles of sending it back to the manufacturer and waiting a month for them to get it back to me.

If you're genuinely worried about it being unsafe then send it back, but from what I saw you've shot your gun and now it looks like you've shot your gun.

At 400 rounds you've probably already shot that pistol than most "experts" on the internet ever would. If the pistol isn't acting up or malfunctioning I'd just keep on shooting and inspecting it.

 

[JAL]

I found the berettas liked to be run wet.
Put somewhere in the 150-200k through various m9 variants over the years. Never worried about oil attracting crud... heck, never cleaned them w/ less than 5k rounds through them, usually much more.

Thanks for both replies. Got through to Beretta USA on the phone. Talked to service rep and it's going back to them on their dime so they can tear it down and look at it.

Sliding parts polishing each other completely smooth would be expected as has occurred on the RIA 1911 and Sig P238. The frame surfaces here are rippled slightly or ragged looking on the surface as if they've been scraped. The chips are silvery metal, not powder residue. The latter has a yellow or light brown/tan tint. Doesn't show well in the photos due to specular light reflectance. Found powder residue in the upper part of the mag well which would be expected. Looked at things with 5x magnifier to distinguish between powder and metal. All the rounds have been brass casing with copper jackets. No nickel plated and most definitely no aluminum or steel (I'd never use the latter two).

Thanks
John

 

[LCSOSgt11]

It looks to me that Beretta's quality control is in the dumper. If possible, send it back, before your frame fails further.

 

[rvb]

The frame surfaces here are rippled slightly or ragged looking on the surface as if they've been scraped.

I suspect the not-so-smooth texture you're seeing is a little machine chatter from the milling process.

tell you what... If you aren't happy w/ beretta's response and you no longer trust it, I'll take it off your hands for $250. I've wanted another M9 to replace the one I wore out.

-rvb

 

[Twangbanger]

Everything you've picc'ed I would expect to see, with the possible exception of the large coating flake taken off the aluminum frame.

I'll give you $260 You are being too anal. That doesn't mean they won't give you a new gun to placate you...but I'm just sayin'.

 

[WebSnyper]

Keep us posted on the progress. Always interested to see the end to end customer service response of a manufacturer. Many people don't bother to come back to post the resolution, so please let us know how it goes.

 

[rugertoter]

Thanks for both replies. Got through to Beretta USA on the phone. Talked to service rep and it's going back to them on their dime so they can tear it down and look at it.

Sliding parts polishing each other completely smooth would be expected as has occurred on the RIA 1911 and Sig P238. The frame surfaces here are rippled slightly or ragged looking on the surface as if they've been scraped. The chips are silvery metal, not powder residue. The latter has a yellow or light brown/tan tint. Doesn't show well in the photos due to specular light reflectance. Found powder residue in the upper part of the mag well which would be expected. Looked at things with 5x magnifier to distinguish between powder and metal. All the rounds have been brass casing with copper jackets. No nickel plated and most definitely no aluminum or steel (I'd never use the latter two).

Thanks
John

Well, sounds like your doing the right thing. I would let them take a look at it, and if all checks out ok, then just use it as normal. At least this way your letting them fix a possible problem, and Beretta is usually pretty good about this stuff.

 

[Vigilant]

Dude, that's beautiful, my issued M9 was a nice shiny silver at all the corners, and almost so on the flats!

 

[Brickmandan]

My Beretta 92fs has a very slight machining defect on the front of the slide that doesn't effect anything. Pretty much every gun I own has something from the factory that keeps it from being perfect. But that chip out of the frame and the gouging on the barrel are definitely not normal wear and you did the right thing sending it in. I'm a huge Beretta 92/M9 fan and would like to hear how they take care of this.

 

[JAL]

My Beretta 92fs has a very slight machining defect on the front of the slide that doesn't effect anything. Pretty much every gun I own has something from the factory that keeps it from being perfect. But that chip out of the frame and the gouging on the barrel are definitely not normal wear and you did the right thing sending it in. I'm a huge Beretta 92/M9 fan and would like to hear how they take care of this.

It's on the way back to Beretta in Maryland. Shipping is on their dime, and it's not costing me anything more than a few weeks without it to have them examine it. Those were the two things that most concerned me, with the barrel and slide breech interference concerning me most that it could be contributing to seeing what appears to be abnormal wear internally. I certainly plan to post back what I get from Beretta, and I've also heard they've got a good service and warranty reputation.

It's not as if it's the only pistol here. The Sig P238 is my primary go-to home defense pistol that's quickly accessible with several mags. A .380 ACP at 10-20 feet, or less, inside a home isn't trivial compared to a .25 Beretta .32 Walther (James Bond's two pistols). Its backup pending the M9 returning is a RIA M1911A1 which is plenty, even with its 8-round mags. If you need more than a dozen rounds in a home defense scenario, such as the Zombie Apocalypse, a Rodney King Riot, or a Katrina Looting, it's probably going to be a Very Bad Day with more than any handgun could effectively defend against for very long, even with a good number of mags and plenty of cartridges to reload them.

The likelihood of any of those scenarios here is effectively zero, but the zombies are still the Wild Card. They could still rise up from the dead at any moment without warning from the cemetery across the street. Very quiet neighbors, albeit new folks move in almost daily, but oddly nobody ever moves out.

John

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Dude, that's beautiful, my issued M9 was a nice shiny silver at all the corners, and almost so on the flats!

^^^ THIS ^^^

$275 to the OP, when Beretta returns it to him unaltered, and his OCD forces him to sell... BTW OP, market is currently flooded with very good to excellent condition 92S for $285- $310 ... Don't expect to get decent resale value out of that 100% functional pistol.

 

[JAL]

^^^ THIS ^^^

$275 to the OP, when Beretta returns it to him unaltered, and his OCD forces him to sell... BTW OP, market is currently flooded with very good to excellent condition 92S for $285- $310 ... Don't expect to get decent resale value out of that 100% functional pistol.

Each one of these offers keeps going up. The thread is turning into an auction.

It is very comforting to know there are so many on this forum expressing such concern about the risk of my becoming neurotic they're willing to remove its potential source from my environment, and pay me for the privilege of helping out!

John
[who doesn't want any bidders holding their breath lest they suffocate]

 

[JAL]

Prodigal M9 Returns

A follow-up on the M9 issues as promised . . .

Arrived Friday, earlier than expected. Field stripped it for inspection and wanted to put about a hundred rounds through it and field strip it again before posting anything here.

Beretta did some work on it and I believe the combination has fixed the problem:

• Cleaned up the frame around the locking block rails. May have smoothed them out some. Looks like they will be OK. Those rails are not as critical as slide rails provided they're not galling.
• Reworked slide and deburred the "face" which I presume was around the short hood over the breech face.
• Installed new barrel and it appears that included a new locking block.

The latter two I consider the most important after putting 100 rounds down range with it yesterday. The slide is no longer hitting the barrel edge, nor is the hood around the breech face coming into contact with it when it goes into battery. I'm concluding much of the problem was between the barrel and slide which would rotate the barrel and put undue downward force on the locking block's flanges in its frame rails. After 100 rounds of the same Winchester NATO as before, there's none of the small metal debris I saw before on the bottom of the barrel around the locking block, and elsewhere around its rails.

I will continue shooting it, and as with the ones assigned to me two decades ago, will continue to inspect it after every range trip when I clean it. As long as it looks like it did after yesterday's sojurn, I'm satisfied.

Whether or not Beretta's work on it made any difference or not, my shot groups are tightening up with it again. Versus my military career in which my beloved 35 year old M1911A1 was replaced by a definitely broken in but much newer M9 about 3-5 years old, I've been shooting the M9 and RIA M1911A1 back to back. Only put about 50 rounds or so through it this time, wanting to spend as much range time with the M9. Groups are still tighter with the 1911. Handling the two with their different trigger pull and recoil is distinctly different. Not something I noticed thirty years ago as there was no opportunity for comparison. Simply worked on grip and stance when I familiarized with the M9 and qualified with it.

John

P.S.
All the most generous offers to take it off my hands over the past week are most regrettably declined.

 

[Hop]

I'm glad they are taking care of you. I have a 32 year old Taurus that appears in better shape with 10x the round count. These are sexy looking guns IMO. I'm just recently getting mine out of the safe for some range time. I had forgotten how well this design shoots.

 

[throttletony]

Thanks for the update.
...and ill give you $286 if you end up ditching it, lol.

Glad their CS took care of you.