Are some guns innately inaccurate?

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  • RiNo6589

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    I have a S&W Model 659 that I've been training with, and after about a year of shooting with this gun I can not hold a tight group even at relatively close ranges. I squeeze, not pull, and practice dry firing to lessen barrel movement during trigger squeeze. Any ideas, or just keep training?
     

    2A_Tom

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    Dry fire with a dime on your front sight. If you can fire the pistol 6 times without dropping the dime throw the pistol in the river.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Yes. Some guns, and some gun+ammo combos, are inaccurate. Guns are machines. They wear out (rarely) or they are machined improperly (less rarely). Some guns just don't like certain weights of bullets, or even certain brands.

    To really tell if it's you or the gun or the ammo will require you to change the variables one at a time. Have someone else shoot the gun. You shoot a different gun. Try a heavier or lighter bullet, etc.
     

    throttletony

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    Yes. Some guns, and some gun+ammo combos, are inaccurate. Guns are machines. They wear out (rarely) or they are machined improperly (less rarely). Some guns just don't like certain weights of bullets, or even certain brands.

    To really tell if it's you or the gun or the ammo will require you to change the variables one at a time. Have someone else shoot the gun. You shoot a different gun. Try a heavier or lighter bullet, etc.

    ^^ bingo ^^
     

    The Bubba Effect

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    OP, I do not know you, so understand if this does not apply to you.

    I struggled greatly with my pistol marksmanship before I finally broke down and took a 1/2 day intro class from ACT that was taught by Coach. After that class, I still struggle, but I learned a set of techniques to strive towards perfecting.

    After that class, I know the firing grip I want, I know how I want to break the shot, I know how I want to drive my eyes to the target, I know that I want to push the pistol out on the draw instead of swing it up, etc. Sometimes I do better at these things than other times, but before I took my first class, I was just floundering without consistency. At least now I generally know why I am screwing up and I have an ideal to strive towards with focus.

    That said, I would check the sights. I seriously doubt they are loose, but I have seen jiggly rifle optics drive people to the edge of insanity. Also, I have a judge that hates some .45LC ammo and loves another particular ammo. 99% of the time, I am the problem.
     

    JAL

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    With a pistol, provided there's not excessive wear or tolerance slop that allows the barrel to wander about compared to the sights, the answer is no. A short sight radius with short barreled pistols and revolvers will inherently have a larger pattern as the circle probability of error increases in target sighting precision. Snubbies with 2-3" barrels are more for up close and personal short range center of mass use under 10 yards than driving nails at 25 yards. Ammunition also has individual round variation. That's why match grade ammunition is much more expensive. It has precision bullet shape and mass, powder load and primer ignition.

    If you want to find out if it's the pistol, bench fire it. A good range can show you how to set that up so that sight picture is extremely accurate and consistent between shots, and trigger pull will not pull the pistol out of alignment with the target. I've done this using sandbags to completely stabilize my hands and grip to check on sight alignment.

    My patterns have always been a function of stance, grip and trigger pull, and I've found the best grip and trigger pull method can vary between handgun sizes and models. Work on finding what works best for you with this specific pistol. Assuming you're shooting standing, start with finding a stance that gives you the most stable sight picture, and then work on grip and trigger pull.

    John
     
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    Some people have a difficult time with a particular gun. A NRA recruiter I know has always had a difficult time shooting Beretta 92's, a prominent youtuber I talk with from time to time has told me he can not shoot a Glock 43 to save his life, but can easily the shoot the 42. I always shoot my S&W M&P 9 with an Apex trigger kit to the right (I am right handed), but for some reason I shoot the 2.0 much better. Even when dry firing the 1.0, with the dime on the front sight, the front sight moves to the right, but the dime does not fall off. I would try a different handgun
    I also have the same problems with the Glock 17, I can shoot the 21 much better than 9mm 17. YMMV
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    With a pistol, provided there's not excessive wear or tolerance slop that allows the barrel to wander about compared to the sights, the answer is no

    That's simply wrong. The cut of the chamber, the rifling, barrel crown, consistency of lockup, etc. all have a role in accuracy.

    A short sight radius with short barreled pistols and revolvers will inherently have a larger pattern as the circle probability of error increases in target sighting precision.

    User dependent. You can shoot a snubby as accurately as a 6" revolver if you know what you're doing. You can't shoot it as accurately as quickly, but there is nothing inherently inaccurate about a shorter sight radius. Certain pistols are actually more mechanically accurate in shorter lengths, the Glock 26 being an often cited example.
     

    JAL

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    That's simply wrong. The cut of the chamber, the rifling, barrel crown, consistency of lockup, etc. all have a role in accuracy.

    Comes under the catchall category of "excessive wear". Manufacturing defects are always possible but would consider those rare. Given the OP's specific model I precluded design defects.

    User dependent. You can shoot a snubby as accurately as a 6" revolver if you know what you're doing. You can't shoot it as accurately as quickly, but there is nothing inherently inaccurate about a shorter sight radius. Certain pistols are actually more mechanically accurate in shorter lengths, the Glock 26 being an often cited example.

    You have confounded sight radius and variation it induces with other factors that induce variation. It doesn't matter who the shooter is, there will always be sight picture variation for a given set of sights that is undetectable to that shooter, or very nearly so, even if it's sighted using a bench rest and all the time desired. I've been down the path of testing repeatability of human visual acuity for unaided inspections and alignments in other technologies. There *is* variation. We reduced it by leveraging on the equivalent of sight radius and using what humans can best detect most precisely with their vision, but it can never be completely eliminated. Some humans have more visual acuity precision with less variation than others. It has nothing to do with trying to do anything quickly and the variation that induces. Repeatability with improved precision for the same human and the same sight design inherently goes up as sight radius increases. The angle at which variation becomes detectable by that same human goes down decreasing the circle probability of error radius at the target. The same dude may be better or worse from one day or one week or one month to the next. That's what creates the circle probability of error. My comment related only to sight radius, and completely (and deliberately) ignored shooter skill, sight design, and any other mechanical aspect of the handgun that might make it more or less precise compared to another model, which were presumed to be the same with only sight radius changing.

    John
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    I've been down the path of testing repeatability of human visual acuity for unaided inspections and alignments in other technologies.

    If you believe... "Snubbies with 2-3" barrels are more for up close and personal short range center of mass use under 10 yards than driving nails at 25 yards." then I'd recommend you take a snubby course at Sand Burr. Theory is great. Go to the range and test it. I bet you'll find you end up shooting a 2" just as well as you shoot a 4" or 6"...just slower.

    Sight radius plays into speed at which you can get acceptable sight alignment, and also plays into velocity which helps with reducing the need for adjusting the sight picture for bullet drop. If you have a good grasp of the fundamentals, you'll get the same sight wobble with a 2" you get with a 6" if you aren't pushed for time. The longer sight radius is more forgiving of user error, and is faster to acquire at any skill level, but is not more accurate.

    [video=youtube_share;HIwVK_FxGZk]http://youtu.be/HIwVK_FxGZk[/video]

    So you tell me that gun isn't capable of "driving nails at 25y" because it's a 2" gun. There is no difference in inherent accuracy, only the user.
     

    Leadeye

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    Remington 1875s had a bad reputation for accuracy due to manufacturing "errors" mismatching chamber mouth and barrel diameters.
     

    cedartop

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    I have a S&W Model 659 that I've been training with, and after about a year of shooting with this gun I can not hold a tight group even at relatively close ranges. I squeeze, not pull, and practice dry firing to lessen barrel movement during trigger squeeze. Any ideas, or just keep training?


    What is your definition of tight group and close range? Do you have other guns that you shoot markedly better? It would be a good idea to get someone who is a known quality shooter give it a try. If that person can shoot 4 inch groups at 25 yards with most handguns, but only a 6 inch group at 10 yards with yours, then there may be an issue. I have had many a person in class tell me their sights were off until they held the gun while I pulled the trigger for them. Magically the gun wasn't the problem anymore.
     

    doddg

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    If you believe... "Snubbies with 2-3" barrels are more for up close and personal short range center of mass use under 10 yards than driving nails at 25 yards." then I'd recommend you take a snubby course at Sand Burr. Theory is great. Go to the range and test it. I bet you'll find you end up shooting a 2" just as well as you shoot a 4" or 6"...just slower.

    Sight radius plays into speed at which you can get acceptable sight alignment, and also plays into velocity which helps with reducing the need for adjusting the sight picture for bullet drop. If you have a good grasp of the fundamentals, you'll get the same sight wobble with a 2" you get with a 6" if you aren't pushed for time. The longer sight radius is more forgiving of user error, and is faster to acquire at any skill level, but is not more accurate.

    [video=youtube_share;HIwVK_FxGZk]http://youtu.be/HIwVK_FxGZk[/video]






    1. The 200 yard, upside-down D/A with a .357 is TOTALLY UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!
     
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