Help me with determining reasonable accuracy expectations.

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  • ART338WM

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    I know this question has been asked before, but I would like to ask it again. I know I am a decent HG shot out to 25 yards, because I have shot enough factory HG's that were accurized to know this. MY definition of "decent" is under 4" 10 shot groups at 25 yards off a sand bag rest. Yes I have shot many 3 & 5 shot sub 3" groups at 25 yards off a rest, but they are not my day in day out average. For example I get to shoot a fellow gun club members accurized 1911/45acps and I can easily get 3" or better groups at 25 yards, same with my Ruger MK-III.

    I ask because I wish to buy several more HG's in compact and full size and would like to keep them all of the same manufacturer for obvious reasons. To be honest the last thing I wish to do is invest over $1k in new HG's only to have to spend a couple hundred more $$$ on trigger upgrades from Apex and are not interested in investing even more $$$ on AM barrels.

    So if I know going into my purchase what the REAL accuracy of a given HG is in it's still factory original configuration, I won't suffer buyers remorse. So what I wish to know is 5-shot 3" 25 yard groups from a rest is an unreasonable expectation of todays 9mm factory polymer striker fired HG's like the M&P 2.0, the H&K VP9 or the PPQ M2.

    I realize this is a subjective at best because most of any firearms accuracy has to do with the guy pulling the trigger, but I feel you should be able to get a pretty good idea on what is a fair expectation of most firearms.

    Thanks,
    DY/Art
     

    chipbennett

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    Firearms are precise. Humans are accurate.

    Accuracy is 100% dependent upon the human. (Well, factor in the trigger, target, ammunition, and environmental conditions as well.) The firearm's inherent precision is a factor, but compared to the other factors, in most cases, that impact is effectively zero.

    I wonder, if one can even reasonably come up with a way to control for all of those factors, what variation in precision is observed from gun to gun?
     

    IndyTom

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    Haven't shot the M&P 2, but the PPQ (M1) gave me a nice tight grouping the first time I fired it as opposed to the VP9 (which has since had a pin fall out of it twice that I'd never removed previously).
     

    cedartop

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    Firearms are precise. Humans are accurate.

    Accuracy is 100% dependent upon the human. (Well, factor in the trigger, target, ammunition, and environmental conditions as well.) The firearm's inherent precision is a factor, but compared to the other factors, in most cases, that impact is effectively zero.

    I wonder, if one can even reasonably come up with a way to control for all of those factors, what variation in precision is observed from gun to gun?

    BS.
     

    cedartop

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    I know this question has been asked before, but I would like to ask it again. I know I am a decent HG shot out to 25 yards, because I have shot enough factory HG's that were accurized to know this. MY definition of "decent" is under 4" 10 shot groups at 25 yards off a sand bag rest. Yes I have shot many 3 & 5 shot sub 3" groups at 25 yards off a rest, but they are not my day in day out average. For example I get to shoot a fellow gun club members accurized 1911/45acps and I can easily get 3" or better groups at 25 yards, same with my Ruger MK-III.

    I ask because I wish to buy several more HG's in compact and full size and would like to keep them all of the same manufacturer for obvious reasons. To be honest the last thing I wish to do is invest over $1k in new HG's only to have to spend a couple hundred more $$$ on trigger upgrades from Apex and are not interested in investing even more $$$ on AM barrels.

    So if I know going into my purchase what the REAL accuracy of a given HG is in it's still factory original configuration, I won't suffer buyers remorse. So what I wish to know is 5-shot 3" 25 yard groups from a rest is an unreasonable expectation of todays 9mm factory polymer striker fired HG's like the M&P 2.0, the H&K VP9 or the PPQ M2.

    I realize this is a subjective at best because most of any firearms accuracy has to do with the guy pulling the trigger, but I feel you should be able to get a pretty good idea on what is a fair expectation of most firearms.

    Thanks,
    DY/Art

    I would say 3" at 25 is a reasonable expectation. Some will do better, a few worse. Many people won't be able to get them to shoot better than 4". There were some infamous examples such as a bunch of the 9 mm M&P's that we're way worse than that even.
     

    chipbennett

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    Which part?

    At most, firearms can be precise (i.e. sending projectiles the same place every time). Firearms cannot, by definition, be accurate. Accuracy requires a target and an acting agent.

    For all but the best shooters, human error makes inherent firearm precision irrelevant.
     
    Last edited:

    BehindBlueI's

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    The Gen 5/M Glock will shoot to your standard, as proven by multiple agency's testing. The FBI tests had guns shooting under 1", and even the "bad" ones shot 2.5".

    On the hammer fired side, my P220 shoots 1" at 10y, I've posted pics before Photobucket went to poo.
     

    Alpo

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    Is there a reason you are utilizing 25 yards as your benchmark as opposed to 15 or some other number? Do you have a specific intended use for the handgun? Competition...action vs. bullseye, etc.

    There are many firearms on the market that I would use in a defensive situation without any great concern, but that might not be your objective.

    Ammo can make a very big difference in the performance of individual firearms.
     

    cedartop

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    Which part?

    At most, firearms can be precise (i.e. sending projectiles the same place every time). Firearms cannot, by definition, be accurate. Accuracy requires a target and an acting agent.

    For all but the best shooters, human error makes inherent firearm accuracy irrelevant.

    OK. First lets forget about the book definitions. We know what the OP is talking about. While not great, if he can shoot 10 shot groups into 4 inches from 25 yards, he is good enough to see the difference in "precision" between platforms. I get he whole Indian/Arrow thing, I really do, however people point to that as if equipment doesn't matter. The best Indian is still going to have a tough time hitting his intended target with a bent arrow. Gear is not the end all, but it definitely is relevant.

    Is human error a big part of the equation? It sure is. If however you don't know or shoot with people who can shoot well enough to see practical differences between certain pistols, you nee to get around a little. I have seen Taurus revolvers shoot 8 inch groups at 10 yards! Surely even your average shooter would be handicap by that. As BBI alluded to there are some factory pistols that can shoot a 2" group. You don't think that is a dramatic difference from one that would shoot a 4" group?

    If you had said that in a "typical" gunfight any modern firearm would be precise enough, ya I could go along with you there. That wasn't the question however.
     

    WebSnyper

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    Firearms are precise. Humans are accurate.

    Accuracy is 100% dependent upon the human. (Well, factor in the trigger, target, ammunition, and environmental conditions as well.) The firearm's inherent precision is a factor, but compared to the other factors, in most cases, that impact is effectively zero.

    I wonder, if one can even reasonably come up with a way to control for all of those factors, what variation in precision is observed from gun to gun?

    Ransom rest would do it wouldn't it? Or are you indicating that just the act of a person having to setup the Ransom rest would taint the results?
     

    IndyGlockMan

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    All of the PPQ's I've shot have been very accurate with great triggers.
    Same goes for my Glock 19 gen5.
    I think some CZ's are pretty accurate out of the box as well as the Canik TP9 Elite which I shot recently and was very impressed with it.
    Also, the Sig Legion series guns are fantastic out of the box with great triggers and impressive accuracy but they are a lot of $$$.
    All of these should meet your accuracy standards too, but yeah 25 yards is pretty far out there for HG's, imho...

    What's your philosophy of use for these HG's??
    You want all of the same one or different models from the same manufacturer?
    if you want a "do it all" gun, it's hard to beat the Glock 19
     

    chipbennett

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    Ransom rest would do it wouldn't it? Or are you indicating that just the act of a person having to setup the Ransom rest would taint the results?

    I think you could control for a lot of the factors: same caliber, so same ammunition. Side by side, to ensure the same environmental conditions. Some sort of bench mounting (vise grip, or something?) to eliminate placement drift from recoil.

    But, yes: I think you do largely have to eliminate all of the human influences.
     

    natdscott

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    Chip, this is pretty academic for a discussion centered around Blocks, but look up the Ransom Rest. They are the de facto standard, and can very easily resolve differences in pistol/pistolsmith and ammo down to the 1 MOA range...maybe less, but you really don't hear of that many 1/2" guns at 50 yards, even in Bullseye. Not that I'm an expert there.

    But to the OP question...I don't know if a striker fired polymer pistol can at all compete with a steel framed tuned automatic or revolver. I haven't seen one that could, but I don't have to be right either.

    I just know that a good target pistol better be doing 2" at 50, and that I have a hard time keeping them inside 4" with TWO hands, much less one.

    I also know a good deal about the Indian vs. Arrow rhetoric...enough to know that it is often true, but also that it is most often touted as undeniable fact by those who are themselves putting holes off center.

    Real performance requires all of the above working together.
     
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    BehindBlueI's

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    As BBI alluded to there are some factory pistols that can shoot a 2" group. You don't think that is a dramatic difference from one that would shoot a 4" group?

    ...and of course, the human component and hardware component "stack", so to speak.

    Some folks seem to have the idea that if you shoot 4" groups and the gun is capable of 4" groups, then somehow it's a wash. In reality, they build on each other.

    I'm a 4" shooter at X distance.

    1) With a hypothetical laser gun that's absolutely perfect, I'll hit within 2" of my point of aim.
    2) With a given 2" gun, I'll be hitting within 3" of my point of aim.
    3) With the 4" gun, I'll be hitting 4" within of my point of aim.

    etc.

    Some guns simply aren't as accurate as others, both certain models and certain individual examples. That's a different issue than the shooter's skill.
     

    Doublehelix

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    I have heard this before, that most decently-manufactured production handguns should be able to hit a 4" group or less at 25 yards (ransom rest). I am not sure what the exclusions are (i.e. snub-nosed revolvers???), or what other stipulations are included in this declaration (ammo, etc.). For me, I am not taking it as the absolute "gospel" but rather to use it as a general rule of thumb.

    There are obviously some guns that are going to shoot less than 4" at 25 yards.

    Personally, I am pretty happy to hit 4" at 25 yards!!!
     

    mcapo

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    To be honest the last thing I wish to do is invest over $1k in new HG's only to have to spend a couple hundred more $$$ on trigger upgrades from Apex and are not interested in investing even more $$$ on AM barrels.

    Thanks,
    DY/Art

    If you want to chase accuracy; you are going to spend money after the purchase - especially with the striker fired guns you mentioned. Factory striker fired triggers are often designed for self defense use and influenced by lawyers without the intent of being "target" grade. Barrels are often made for longevity and acceptable accuracy.

    You'll find lots of side by side "accuracy" comparisons around the web. Take them for what you paid for them...
     
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