Private sales in-state without 4473?

[Topshot]

I understand it is legal here to sell to a fellow resident that is legally allowed to own a firearm. However, I was under the impression the 4473 that you filled out to purchase it originally from an FFL "registered" that firearm to you. Thus, if a future crime were committed with said firearm they could look you up unless it had been officially transferred with a new 4473. Since I see quite a few ads here that only ask for DL and LTCH is that not the case?

I've seen some suggest a homemade bill of sale for the buyer in question. Is the seller also permanently keeping a copy? I didn't see this discussed in the classified rules/FAQ or in a quick search of the site so I'm curious about the commonly accepted practice of INGOers. Thank you.

 

[WebSnyper]

There is no registration of firearms in Indiana. The 4473 does not "register" the weapon, it is the background check. That said, if a firearm needs to be "tracked", I believe the methodology is that the law enforcement agency can contact the manufacturer, who provides the distributor, who then can provide the retail store/outlet it was sent to, and they can then review their FFL book/4473's, etc and find the first purchaser of the firearm. After that it can get troublesome as there is no requirement for private parties to keep a paper trail on a sale, so if/when a LEO shows up to question that original purchaser, they can simply say I sold/traded/lost and there is no additional info, etc it, or if they choose, they can provide additional info they may have. Others (LEOs/FFLs, etc) can correct that sequence if it is not correct.

Common practice on INGO is up to the buyer and seller of a particular firearm, but most here are not interested in having their info recorded on a private sale, and if that is something that one of the parties is going to require, the best advice is that needs to be stated up front in any offer to sell or buy before it goes beyond initial contact.

You can go to an FFL and have a 4473 done on a private transaction if buyer/seller choose to do so, but it is still not a registration of the weapon. It is a background check.

 

[Topshot]

The 4473 does not "register" the weapon, it is the background check.

I understand they do the check at the same time but there is no need to record SN or any such info if it was just a BGC. It is titled as Firearm Transaction Record. I know our state doesn't register firearms which is why I had that in quotes. The fact remains that SN is tied to your name for 20 years. If you are not the original buyer then it's not an issue unless you had filled out a new 4473.

I take it there have been no cases where a former owner has been held liable for a firearm LEGALLY resold.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I understand it is legal here to sell to a fellow resident that is legally allowed to own a firearm. However, I was under the impression the 4473 that you filled out to purchase it originally from an FFL "registered" that firearm to you. Thus, if a future crime were committed with said firearm they could look you up unless it had been officially transferred with a new 4473. Since I see quite a few ads here that only ask for DL and LTCH is that not the case?

I've seen some suggest a homemade bill of sale for the buyer in question. Is the seller also permanently keeping a copy? I didn't see this discussed in the classified rules/FAQ or in a quick search of the site so I'm curious about the commonly accepted practice of INGOers. Thank you.

If you are man of a certain age, you may remember Indiana's UBC for handguns. Be advsied this statute was repealed in 1998.

Go through an FFL, homemade bill of sale, e-mail, or interpretative dance at completion of the sale (this is what I do).

 

[WebSnyper]

interpretative dance at completion of the sale (this is what I do).

Now that might just be worth seeing...

 

[indiucky]

or interpretative dance at completion of the sale (this is what I do).

So I've heard.......

[video=youtube;-KyUmAOtGa0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KyUmAOtGa0[/video]

 

[WebSnyper]

I understand they do the check at the same time but there is no need to record SN or any such info if it was just a BGC. It is titled as Firearm Transaction Record. I know our state doesn't register firearms which is why I had that in quotes. The fact remains that SN is tied to your name for 20 years. If you are not the original buyer then it's not an issue unless you had filled out a new 4473.

I take it there have been no cases where a former owner has been held liable for a firearm LEGALLY resold.

I would not say there were no cases as I don't know . I'd think the govt would have to prove that someone knowingly sold the firearm to someone that they knew was not a proper person, based on my understanding. But again, Kirk or one of the others can comment more on that.

Search the term boating accident here on INGO.

In any case, it is up to what the buyer and seller agree upon for paper trail, as it should be.

And you have hit upon just one of the issues with so called universal background checks on private sales... it can't really be enforced without putting a registration into effect (but the people who are for it would not tell you that).

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Now that might just be worth seeing...

If it is for the sale of a Smith kit gun, INGO decency standards forbid me from such a performance. The Smith M45 dance would get me banned from all of the Internet.

 

[indiucky]

If it is for the sale of a Smith kit gun, INGO decency standards forbid me from such a performance. The Smith M45 dance would get me banned from all of the Internet.

LOL...Yeah my K 22 dance is banned in 14 states....

 

[hoosierdaddy1976]

So I've heard.......

[video=youtube;-KyUmAOtGa0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KyUmAOtGa0[/video]

Boy, Shakira has let herself go.

 

[bwframe]

...I've seen some suggest a homemade bill of sale for the buyer in question. Is the seller also permanently keeping a copy? I didn't see this discussed in the classified rules/FAQ or in a quick search of the site so I'm curious about the commonly accepted practice of INGOers. Thank you.

Up to the parties involved. Some folks won't sell without a BOS. Some folks won't buy if it involves a BOS.

For my propose, I want the seller to specify up front, if there is to be a BOS. I'm not in the won't buy camp, but I wouldn't want to be surprised at the meeting place. I want to be able to make the decision on such things before saying "I'll take it."

I'm not going to volunteer for additional (unnecessary?) paperwork or ties to an item unless it's a very special unique deal. I'll find a duplicate or wait for another if that is a possibility.

 

[Topshot]

It doesn't sound like anyone knows of issues that have occurred, which was my main concern. I just realized most of my paperwork may be off the books by now (past 20 year retention req). However, I know of at least one dealer that went OOB so that form went to ATF which likely doesn't throw anything away.

 

[Expat]

Some of us are just a bit reluctant to give a complete stranger, that now knows we collect guns, our personal information including address.

 

[mcapo]

Generally, I would prefer a bill of sale if I don't know you. If the ATF ever knocks on my door, I want to know from who I bought it and to whom I sold it.

As to bwframe's comments - I send a copy of my very simple bill of sale before meeting.

Someone here started a thread that was videoing taping the meet and had a lengthy bill of sale - that was a little over the top. At that point, if your are that unsure - just pay the fee at an FFL...

Value and type of firearm also has some influence.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Some of us are just a bit reluctant to give a complete stranger, that now knows we collect guns, our personal information including address.

As a C&R license holder I don't have a choice if I'm selling one of my old guns that I've had to enter into my log book. If I sell a modern gun, no problem - usually ask to see a DL if I don't know someone (or if they have very little or no feedback here on INGO) but in that case I don't have to record anything. Only had a couple people balk at recording their DL info for my log book and that's cool, I understand. That goes for buying and selling, but if I'm buying an old gun I just need their name and address, not the DL #. Selling I have to record DL info including date of birth. I always tell them it's Uncle Sam's rules and not mine.

 

[71silverbullet]

I will avoid sellers who want a signed bill of sale, unless its a REALLY special gun that I've been looking for, for a long time. Even then I'd probably offer to pay for a transfer. And if the seller doesn't disclose that he wants a BOS in advance, then shows up requesting one, I'll back out (This happened once to me). You as an individual don't need my information recorded if I don't know you.
The ads on here are a digital footprint of many transactions. I bought a gun once from a member on here who didn't want to communicate via text or phone, he would only PM.
When we met for the transaction, he explained that it was for digital record and protected him in case I was intending to rob him, as our location for meeting and my vehicle description were logged. I had no issue with that, He didn't know me.
Just because we use screen names doesn't mean we are anonymous.

 

[ATM]

...Just because we use screen names doesn't mean we are anonymous.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The 4473 does not "register" the weapon, it is the background check. That said, if a firearm needs to be "tracked", I believe the methodology is that the law enforcement agency can contact the manufacturer, who provides the distributor, who then can provide the retail store/outlet it was sent to, and they can then review their FFL book/4473's, etc and find the first purchaser of the firearm.

This is correct. It's an issue if you did something like buy a gun on Tuesday and Wednesday your felon boyfriend used it to murder somebody. If you aren't doing straw purchases, it's not an issue.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

I know a guy, yeah, that's the ticket, that holds his driver's license by the name and address to show he's a resident of the state, and the same with the LTCH to show he's properly a person. Cash from there, bill of sale is a deal killer. As I understand, several prime firearms have disappeared into the wilderness that way. I need to try that when I'm back into some quatloos.

 

[TJ Kackowski]

I know a guy, yeah, that's the ticket, that holds his driver's license by the name and address to show he's a resident of the state, and the same with the LTCH to show he's properly a person. Cash from there, bill of sale is a deal killer. As I understand, several prime firearms have disappeared into the wilderness that way. I need to try that when I'm back into some quatloos.

Pulling a stunt like that would be a deal breaker for me ... if I don't know the person I'm selling to, I need to verify that the name on the DL (proving IN resident), and the name on the LTCH (proving proper person) are a match ... no match, no sale.