Iron sight question, especially for LEO's

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  • ART338WM

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    Been trying to decide on a compact EDC and found out only yesterday about a gun range that opened up little over 6 months ago up about 25 minuets from my house that has a quite large selection of handguns available to rent and shoot. Went there today and rented a P320 Carry and a CZ P10c. Now I have not shot any handgun in over 3 months and in that time I got new glasses as my sight and prescription had changed.

    I was very surprised how blurry the sight picture was, I mean it caught me completely off guard as I honestly don't recall experiencing this level of blurry when last I shot my HG's. I had no small difficulty seeing and maintaining a good solid and clear sight picture. But I did my best and put 100 rounds through each gun. I was once again reminded just how much skill and concentration is needed to shoot a HG well.

    When I shot the P320 Carry I was really getting aggravated with myself because the first 8 of 15 rounds at 12 yards formed a nice ragged hole a little under 2" the remainder still not that bad considering it was the first time I ever fired the gun. The fact I was struggling to see clearly enough to consistently maintain a solid sight picture didn't help. A 100 rounds later and I am confident the gun is FAR more accurate than I am, and all my groups looked and started out the same, first 5-8 rounds forming a nice (for me) tight group then begin opening up. A fellow shooter at the range after noticing the displeased look on my face commented if I would have limited my self to 3 or 5 shot groups, I would likely have been much more satisfied.


    My question, especially to police officers is when you vision becomes like mine and you can no longer see as clear a sight picture as you recently were while using iron sights, what, if anything (and I suspect there is little one can actually do besides going to a red dot/reflect type sight) do you do to over come and improve the sight picture? I am positive with practice I will be able to significantly improve my accuracy at 10-15 yards, as without doubt it is me and not the gun. But I can see it will take some serious effort to adapt to the new blurry sight picture I am now encountering.


    I have to say one the one hand I shot some great (FOR ME) 3 and 5 shot groups groups today. But let my concentration or form slip just the ever so slightest bit and wow it showed instantly as would be expect. Aggravating but also quite encouraging because I shot just enough good groups to know with practice I can get MUCH better.

    Because of the issue with my eye sight I felt that a 100 rounds through each gun was not sufficient to allow me to be able to render a good determination of which was the best for me and I also wanted to try out at least two other HG's as well as shoot the Sig and the CZ at least another 100 rounds each. Unfortunately I had paid for only an hour of range time and as I found out when the range is extremely busy you can not just add on an additional hour you have to wait to cycle back trough and use the range again. Doing so today equaled an minimum 90 minuet to two hour wait at least. As I'm still off work tomorrow I will go back better prepared and will pay for at least two hours range time.
    I plan on renting the P320 carry and CZ P10c again along with a VP9 and a M&P 2.0 Compact.

    Hopefully by the end I will know which one I like the best.
     

    throttletony

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    Im not LEO, but i wear corrective lenses. Ive had to accept living with a blurry target and prefer to focus on my front sight. In other words, everything can and will be blurry, except the front sight.
    Some competitive shooters will get glasses with diff prescriptions for dominant and non dominant eye (youtube PowerFactor show for examples) to allow clear front sight and clearer target picture. That's only useful when u know you'll be shooting a lot - thus only in competition.

    One idea: are u overcorrecting (gripping differently/harder after the first few rounds)??
     
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    Whip_McCord

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    Also not LEO, I am a Cancer. A little horoscope humor. I shoot quite a bit, mostly local competitions now. When I shoot iron sighted guns, I have a special pair of contact lenses. The right lens focuses on the front sight and the left is for distance. This is similar to what throttletony suggested. I am very nearsighted and I cannot focus on the front sight if my standard lenses are used. A friend has a similar setup with prescription shooting glasses. With those setups, we both shoot iron sight very well.

    My last prescription set of glasses was with progressive lenses. You look down and you can see close objects clearly. My phone, PC screen, etc are all clear now. Look up and distant objects are clear. Using them for shooting is a little weird, because you have to tilt your head back in order to focus on the front sight. If you do not have progressive lenses, this might be the place to start for everyday wear. They will give you clear focus for near and distant objects and you should be able to focus on the front sight when needed, with a little practice. Hope this helps.
     

    WebSnyper

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    My last prescription set of glasses was with progressive lenses. You look down and you can see close objects clearly. My phone, PC screen, etc are all clear now. Look up and distant objects are clear. Using them for shooting is a little weird, because you have to tilt your head back in order to focus on the front sight.

    I'm guessing this is the issue, especially if the OP did not have progressive lenses before or the prescription for distance vision has gotten stronger, etc. The top part of the progressive lens typically is specifically for distance vision and with most people's head position when shooting (lowered down, looking through the top of the lenses down the sight radius of the gun) that will be far from ideal to have crisp sights.

    Now depending on your purpose (are you just wanting to get better sight picture at the range, or is this a concern you have for EDC, etc) as well as what your vision problems actually are, there may be different answers. I have the problem with the sights being fuzzy (just due to declining eyes due to age), I use something like this for range use (the magnifier is at the top of the glasses, positioned well for shooting head position):

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UO4OY8Q/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=IERKF31DXN0OR&colid=2UEGAQD6R978B&psc=0

    Of course, that won't help you during EDC, etc.

    Other options might be as other posters have stated, practicing with a different head position, etc with your current glasses, possibly looking at using a laser, or an RMR, etc.
     
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    Everything but the front sight should be blurry. Target out of focus. Rear sight out of focus, front sight focus. Or is all the above out of focus?
    images

    Why do you need to talk to a cop about sight picture? There is more than a few LEO here who could give a highly intelligent and elegant answer, but there is probably a couple hundred skilled shooters that could give a good answer too.

    I'm not including myself in the skilled shooter category, I'm not even sure if my answer had anything to do with your question.
     

    Topshot

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    Posting to follow mostly. While I could wear different lenses for competitions, I want something that will work EDC. So I'll either work at getting better at using whatever fuzzy sight picture I have as well as trying some higher viz sights to make the front stand out more, or resorting to a laser/red dot.

    I'm also interested to see the results of your comparison test.
     

    Whip_McCord

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    Now depending on your purpose (are you just wanting to get better sight picture at the range, or is this a concern you have for EDC, etc) as well as what your vision problems actually are, there may be different answers. I have the problem with the sights being fuzzy (just due to declining eyes due to age), I use something like this for range use (the magnifier is at the top of the glasses, positioned well for shooting head position):

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UO4OY8Q/_encoding=UTF8?coliid=IERKF31DXN0OR&colid=2UEGAQD6R978B&psc=0

    A shooting buddy did something like that with his progressive lenses. He had the close up vision at the top. It seemed to work OK, but he did not need them after his cataract surgery.

    I think for EDC, progressive lenses are a good compromise. That's what I wear every day. With a little practice, looking thru the bottom of the lenses shouldn't be too difficult.
     
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    throttletony

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    Since we're discussing sight picture, this is exactly why many people prefer a VERY bright and visible front sight, and then the back sight can be blacked out, or just something less bright.

    If there's other issues besides sight picture my immediate response is grip, stance, trigger pull.
    You can practice with a penny or dime resting on front sight and see if you can pull the trigger (UNLOADED, of course) without making the penny fall.
    "Milking your grip" is another potential problems. Are you holding high on the gun? As much surface contact as possible with hands on grip?
    Does your stance tighten up or move forward after the first few rounds? Perhaps in anticipation of recoil?
     

    nick89302

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    Your vision isn't causing your groups to open up as you shoot. You're becoming fatigued. You need more practice. (Edited to add:) Most of the time this manifests itself by the shooter fidgeting with the gun. They'll squeeze off a round, readjust their grip, won't track the sights through recoil, go to low ready, blink hard, bring the gun back up, squeeze the grip, etc. If this sounds like you, practice more, focus on the basics, and bring someone to critique your form.



    You also seem to be having a problem where you can't get a sharp focus on your front site. Talk to your optometrist about that.
     

    Amishman44

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    I prefer tritum night sights on all my carry guns...not only for the visibility of the 'green' dots in low/no shooting situations, but also for the white dots during normal sunlight shooting.

    I wear glasses and practice with them on so I can better focus on the target... remember, when shooting, keep your eye on the target and then, allowing for your peripheral vision, bring your gun/sights up and into alignment with your target.

    Practicing: Slow is smooth...Smooth is fast! (In other words, practice it slowly at first, maintaining a smooth and accurate motion....with practice, it'll get faster naturally, just don't force it! :)

    It sometimes helps to practice shooting drills with a lighter caliber, then move to your EDC. I have a couple of .22's around for skill development...and people know when they're ready to move up to their EDC caliber.
     

    ART338WM

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    Thanks a great deal for all the replies. As I already knew I need much, much more practice. I never cease to be amazed how I can shoot both my rifles and for that matter my compound bows after having not shot either for 3-4 months and still shoot both quite well. I regularly shoot better groups on average with my compound bow at 25 yards than I can with my semi autos.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Your vision isn't causing your groups to open up as you shoot. You're becoming fatigued.

    This. Very precise shooting is deamanding mentally. It's also demanding physically. Everyone realizes their hands get tired, but so do the tiny eye muscles. There are eye exercises you can do periodically that can help. One I try to remember to do is at a red light, focus on a street sign, then rapidly change focus to a spot on your windshield. Do this a few times a day and it'll help. I notice a difference in my night vision being sharper when I remember to do it.
     

    88E30M50

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    I have vision issues too and when trying to shoot with precision, I just use non-prescription shooting glasses. My bifocals either make the target crystal clear or if I crane my neck back to see through the reading lenses, the front sight clear. My near vision is still pretty good, so I can just shoot without prescription glasses and aim for the fuzzy target.

    When I practice SD shooting, I don't even look at the sights. Point shooting is all I practice for SD. I've found that the CZ P10C points very well for me and I can keep a decent group at 10 yards with just point shooting. One of the best tools to use to train for point shooting is a laser cartridge that flashes a bright spot of light when you pull the trigger. When I'm working from home and on a conference call, I get a lot of practice point shooting from a lot of positions. Point shooting with a laser cartridge from a low position is a great way to tell how much of a feel that you have for a specific gun.

    Oh, and I am not a cop, so take any of this with a grain of salt.
     

    ART338WM

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    Everything but the front sight should be blurry. Target out of focus. Rear sight out of focus, front sight focus. Or is all the above out of focus?
    images

    Why do you need to talk to a cop about sight picture? There is more than a few LEO here who could give a highly intelligent and elegant answer, but there is probably a couple hundred skilled shooters that could give a good answer too.

    I'm not including myself in the skilled shooter category, I'm not even sure if my answer had anything to do with your question.
    I requested input from LEO's as their lives are dependent on their shooting skills and I'm sure like me as they age some of them are going to encounter the same eye sight issues as I described in my original post. For this reason I was hoping maybe the LE community had a good way to deal with blurry sight pictures caused by eye sight. I always figure can not hurt to ask when you don't know.
     

    ECS686

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    As an agency instructor I see this with a lot of folks. The problem is LEOs are limited to agency rules and many (I'd guess most) don't authorize MOS or carry optics. So we have a couple options. Keep the prescription up to date or Lasik. I've has some fail because they haven't shot for a year and a year in your 50's is like about 6 in your late 20's and 30's. Some we're solid enough they still qualified others made that appointment with Dr Tavel. And been good on a reshoot.

    I actually don't know what the across the board result would be with those shooters using optics but would like to see. But until an agency accepts it across the board it depends on selling it to the trainers and lawyers and administration as far as LEOs go
     

    bwframe

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    Been fighting with middle aged eyes for years. I wear reading glasses for work and reading. Cant figure out how I'd have time to put them on for a gunfight, so I don't allow myself to use them for shooting.

    The big orange dot on the front sight helps me:

    7t1P0zC.png
     

    ART338WM

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    Been fighting with middle aged eyes for years. I wear reading glasses for work and reading. Cant figure out how I'd have time to put them on for a gunfight, so I don't allow myself to use them for shooting.

    The big orange dot on the front sight helps me:

    7t1P0zC.png
    That is the EXACT sight I plan on putting on all my HGs.
     

    ART338WM

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    Went back to the same range today did a very well written out post about the results, unfortunately when I attempted to post it my computer fritzed and it vanished. Sorry but I'm not going to start all over, so here comes the abridged version.

    After I figured out part of my sight picture problem was a tritium front sight made VERY hard to see from soot deposited from muzzle blast and cleaned it up, once cleaned up my sight pictured was considerably improved.
    Took my time, dry fired the gun 60-70x, to learned the trigger, fired 300 more rounds to learn the gun and let it tell me how it wants to be shot and bottom line my groups were reduced by more or less 60%. Took only 30 shots at 10 yards the remaining 270 all at 15 yards. Didn't go past 15 because I felt considering my skills (or lack there of) at this time it would have likely been a waste of ammo and no small detriment to my confidence. Shot 200 at bulls eyes and 100 at an IDPA target. No group was bigger than 3" had surprisingly quite a few 3-shot 15 yard all touching. Of the 100 at the IDPA when shooting at the center mass only 7 were out of the 0 zone, 5 in the -1 and 2 in the -3. Slower fire at the head and three were in the -1 zone.

    Extremely happy, but yeah I still stink, but thankfully I love to shoot and shooting with good mechanics is what will get me better, could be worse could be trying to improve not getting bucked off a brahma bull. I absolutely love this little Sig P320. Sheer joy to shoot, trigger is FOR ME just plane great. I don't recall ever having more fun shooting a semi-auto HG save for my 6" Ruger MK-III and that's at best a tie. I know 10 and 15 yards are the minimum, but I also know I can improve and the P320 will help me to do so.

    Thanks for the advice that got my head back on straight.
    Art.
     
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