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  • doddg

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    I have taken some well-deserved abuse (and some not so) but the point is taken that training is desirable for efficient use of one's CC.
    I have no desire to be trained at a level to break up a bank robbery, but to defend myself and/or the wife if needed.
    This would be very close-quartered, in line with the stats typically issued from FBI or NYPD (and if I remember only 2 shots fired is the majority is something I read).
    Taking the below statements into consideration, training that I desire would be inline with this.
    I know some will take exception, and I bear up under honest criticism from well-intentioned observations, as I have been criticized here before in the context of needing training.
    Do I just contact a range (like Point Blank) to get started instead of jumping into 1:1 training that would be better suited to one that had the basics under their belt.
    Due to recovery from hip surgery I'll not be able to do a long stretch. Even before surgery the arthritis in my neck, back and hips prevented that, but now that I'm using a can to walk (with no twisting) I am limited. I can limp and take steps w/o a cane for a limited amount of time/distance.
    Since I have 4 weeks before work begins again so I could do more than 1 training.
    I would be picking out my default S/W 642 hammerless to use, unless you can train with 2 guns then I would include my Shield 9mm as well.
    I know there have been recommendations to go with people here instead of group training b/c even though more expensive: better use of time.


    Of particular interest is the statement that: "...the ability to keep all shots on a standard 8 1/2 inch by 11 inch sheet of paper at seven yards, hitting in the center of exposed mass, is sufficient for most defensive purposes." .

    NYPD stats say that 75% of gunfights occur at less than 20 feet, and that if you are going to be shot and killed, there is an 81% chance that it will be at less than 6 feet, and a 90% chance that it will be at less than 15 feet. FBI stats say that if you are going to be shot, there is more than an 80% chance that it will be at less than 21 feet.

    A comment by one "authority": I usually don't aim with the sights. I just shoot as fast as I can point at the target with my index finger, which is along the side of the gun, and pull the trigger with my middle finger. That is an odd way of shooting to many, but the results are good.

    Adrenaline will be released into the bloodstream. "This powerful chemical heightens the senses and increases strength, and can also cause trembling of the muscles. This trembling can make it more difficult....to hold the firearm steady."

    The Guide (also in keeping with the literature), states that regardless of its source, stress results in the loss of fine motor skills.

    POINT SHOOTING:
    The Guide states that "Point Shooting involves simply raising the gun or extending the handgun from a ready position to your normal two-handed firing stance, with the muzzle pointed towards the center of mass of the target, and firing as soon as your arms are in the shooting position." There is no attempt to align the sights, and you focus on where you want the bullets to strike. The handgun will be below or at eye level, and you likely will be aware of the rear sight or "the general outline of the firearm, and use that as a visual reference to roughly align the gun with the target."
     

    G192127

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    Practice the dot torture test drill on your own.
    That is a drill that will solid up your gun handling skills and make any training you take after that more enjoyable and less stressful.
     

    cedartop

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    Wow. I am going to try and respond without sounding like a jerk. You don't know what you don't know. There is a lot of of room for misinterpretation in the facts you post. What we would face and what police might face are two different things. Please stay away from the point shooting path. It is a legitimate technique for narrow application. You will be much better served by actually learning how to shoot properly with the sights. I would really recommend you get into a Tom Givens class, but if not that go see Aron Bright, or one of a small handful of other instructors on this board. There is no point in learning something wrong that you have to fix later.

    By the way, good on you for realizing the need for training and being willing to do something about it.
     

    doddg

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    Practice the dot torture test drill on your own.
    That is a drill that will solid up your gun handling skills and make any training you take after that more enjoyable and less stressful.

    1. I'll google it.

    Wow. I am going to try and respond without sounding like a jerk. You don't know what you don't know. There is a lot of of room for misinterpretation in the facts you post. What we would face and what police might face are two different things. Please stay away from the point shooting path. It is a legitimate technique for narrow application. You will be much better served by actually learning how to shoot properly with the sights. I would really recommend you get into a Tom Givens class, but if not that go see Aron Bright, or one of a small handful of other instructors on this board. There is no point in learning something wrong that you have to fix later.
    By the way, good on you for realizing the need for training and being willing to do something about it.

    2. Your input is appreciated, truly! :thumbsup:
    3. I would have taken a class before now, but I was waiting till summer, then got slammed with surgery.
    4. I will google those 2 names.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Start with a class or two on defensive handgun. I think Guy Relford runs one through his company Tactical Firearms Training, as well as our own GNRPowder through Southern Indiana Firearms Training and Safety. (you'll have to check, I just recall seeing them advertise in the past)

    With those behind you, check out BBI and Coach's collaboration, Defensive Handgun Concepts I and II. Both awesome classes. Any good instructor will work with your physical limitations on a defensive training course at the entry level. They should be teaching you how YOU can defend yourself, not a cookie cutter, one size fits all response for everyone to do. When necessary, is the best thing to surprise the attacker and dynamically explode off the X and move far off the line of attack as you shoot on the move? Probably. But if you are unable to do so, a good trainer will work with you on how YOU can do your best to react.

    And a good defensive class isnt all range time. The best classes I have attended on the subject were weighted heavily on the classroom portion. Mindset, situational awareness, and avoiding a threat is a YUUUUUUUUGE part of staying alive. A threat you saw first and avoided is the best defense. In fact, One of those classroom sessions kept me out of harms way earlier this spring because I recognized the approaching threat before he saw me, and by the time he attempted to engage, I was beyond his range of control and moving away too fast from him to a safe place.

    Good luck!

    Also, check out the tactics and training forum here. Lots of good info there typically.
     

    Trigger Time

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    Start with a class or two on defensive handgun. I think Guy Relford runs one through his company Tactical Firearms Training, as well as our own GNRPowder through Southern Indiana Firearms Training and Safety. (you'll have to check, I just recall seeing them advertise in the past)

    With those behind you, check out BBI and Coach's collaboration, Defensive Handgun Concepts I and II. Both awesome classes. Any good instructor will work with your physical limitations on a defensive training course at the entry level. They should be teaching you how YOU can defend yourself, not a cookie cutter, one size fits all response for everyone to do. When necessary, is the best thing to surprise the attacker and dynamically explode off the X and move far off the line of attack as you shoot on the move? Probably. But if you are unable to do so, a good trainer will work with you on how YOU can do your best to react.

    And a good defensive class isnt all range time. The best classes I have attended on the subject were weighted heavily on the classroom portion. Mindset, situational awareness, and avoiding a threat is a YUUUUUUUUGE part of staying alive. A threat you saw first and avoided is the best defense. In fact, One of those classroom sessions kept me out of harms way earlier this spring because I recognized the approaching threat before he saw me, and by the time he attempted to engage, I was beyond his range of control and moving away too fast from him to a safe place.

    Good luck!

    Also, check out the tactics and training forum here. Lots of good info there typically.
    Yep I second that any instructor worth their weight in salt will train you as you will fight.
    Also sometimes exploding off the X isnt always necessary if you have the mindset to not get boxed in or if you change the X to where you want it to be. Also something a good instructor will teach you. Criminals attempt to set up their little ambushes at set points or with a set scam and sometimes just taking an extra step or two and then turning and engaging verbally or visually (or not at all) is enough to thwart an attack. If it's not, you are ready anyways because you just took one element away from their game, made them have to change their body possition and thought of your next few moves just in case.

    Props to you for seeking training.
     
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    doddg

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    Start with a class or two on defensive handgun. I think Guy Relford runs one through his company Tactical Firearms Training, as well as our own GNRPowder through Southern Indiana Firearms Training and Safety. (you'll have to check, I just recall seeing them advertise in the past)

    With those behind you, check out BBI and Coach's collaboration, Defensive Handgun Concepts I and II. Both awesome classes. Any good instructor will work with your physical limitations on a defensive training course at the entry level. They should be teaching you how YOU can defend yourself, not a cookie cutter, one size fits all response for everyone to do. When necessary, is the best thing to surprise the attacker and dynamically explode off the X and move far off the line of attack as you shoot on the move? Probably. But if you are unable to do so, a good trainer will work with you on how YOU can do your best to react.

    And a good defensive class isnt all range time. The best classes I have attended on the subject were weighted heavily on the classroom portion. Mindset, situational awareness, and avoiding a threat is a YUUUUUUUUGE part of staying alive. A threat you saw first and avoided is the best defense. In fact, One of those classroom sessions kept me out of harms way earlier this spring because I recognized the approaching threat before he saw me, and by the time he attempted to engage, I was beyond his range of control and moving away too fast from him to a safe place.
    Good luck!
    Also, check out the tactics and training forum here. Lots of good info there typically.

    1. Very useful info, and I was trying to find info here and saw:
    a. Tactics and Training on "The Range"
    b. Training (on the INGO Adverisers page) Adaptive Consulting and Training
    Appleseed
    Indiana State Rifle and Pistol Association
    Revere's Riders
    Pay It Forward Now

    2. I will eventually outgrow my current limitation from surgery (but got another coming up next summer if I can put it off that long), but don't see any "throwing-myself-on-the-ground" defense tactics in my future ever.
    3. I was actually thinking of 1:1 instruction from a local here, although I'm not opposed to taking a general training class from a place like Point Blank just to get my feet wet.
    4. But, I was told (in a private pm about training) that I shouldn't even bother with a Point Blank type of approach.
    5. I have had some terrific pms sent to encourage me and suggestions made, and I do appreciate the grace and patience shown since as someone said, "You just don't know what you just don't know." I think I am totally aware of my shortcomings, but if is like marriage, I'm sure it's a life-long process and we can't see our own "gaps" like others can. :laugh:
    6. Your input about avoidance and having your "radar" up is probably a strong point with me due to experiences in another lifetime when a youngling.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    While worthwhile overall as a shooter, Ignore Appleseed for this discussion. That is unless you are training for the supposed coming civil war and expect to engage threats with a rifle at distance. They are rifle marksmanship clinics only .

    And Appleseed is nonexistent now in central Indiana. Revere's Riders is the way to go now, at least for rifle marksmanship. I'm not familiar with their handgun offerings.
     

    doddg

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    Practice the dot torture test drill on your own.
    That is a drill that will solid up your gun handling skills and make any training you take after that more enjoyable and less stressful.

    While worthwhile overall as a shooter, Ignore Appleseed for this discussion. That is unless you are training for the supposed coming civil war and expect to engage threats with a rifle at distance. They are rifle marksmanship clinics only .

    And Appleseed is nonexistent now in central Indiana. Revere's Riders is the way to go now, at least for rifle marksmanship. I'm not familiar with their handgun offerings.

    1. Oh my! No rifle instruction in my future.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    1. Oh my! No rifle instruction in my future.

    Its a good time, and typically shot using 22, so you would actually love it.

    And the history lesson they teach as part of the training centered around April 19, 1775 is OUTSTANDING!
     

    croy

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    I'm not sure who you should see. But I'd definitely bring speed reloaders for a revolver or extra magazines for a semi auto. Reloading is part of the training exercise.

    I'd say look into Guy Relfords or Coach's class. Take the beginner and keep moving up.
     

    cedartop

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    .

    Of particular interest is the statement that: "...the ability to keep all shots on a standard 8 1/2 inch by 11 inch sheet of paper at seven yards, hitting in the center of exposed mass, is sufficient for most defensive purposes." .

    NYPD stats say that 75% of gunfights occur at less than 20 feet, and that if you are going to be shot and killed, there is an 81% chance that it will be at less than 6 feet, and a 90% chance that it will be at less than 15 feet. FBI stats say that if you are going to be shot, there is more than an 80% chance that it will be at less than 21 feet.

    ."

    Check this out. https://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/article/what-do-fbi-statistics-really-say-about-gunfights/
     

    doddg

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    Thanks guys! :thumbsup:
    I will check out the links you gave me after I finish watching the romantic Hallmark movie with the wife. :laugh:
    I look forward to getting something set up soon; I only have 4 weeks before life gets busy again with work and my life of leisure is curtailed. :(
     
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    BehindBlueI's

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    I'm not going to address all of the outdated and just wrong info in the first post but I can't let this go without comment.

    A comment by one "authority": I usually don't aim with the sights. I just shoot as fast as I can point at the target with my index finger, which is along the side of the gun, and pull the trigger with my middle finger. That is an odd way of shooting to many, but the results are good.

    No, the results aren't good. They might be acceptable to someone who has nothing to compare it against, but there's a reason nobody of any standing teaches this BS. Poor recoil control, poor retention, poor accuracy, etc.

    Point shooting sucks. The "pointer finger index" sucks even more. You can learn to index shoot when you are stationary, your target is stationary, and the distance is relatively short. You can even learn to make hits out to 25y or so...but at that point you'll be slower than sighted fire. Moving targets, you're screwed.

    Take a fundamentals class from Coach or elsewhere. Feel free to sign up for my class this Sept if you get the fundamentals and gun safety on board. Don't show up point shooting or pulling a trigger with a middle finger (unless you're missing your trigger finger). My class isn't about how to shoot, it's tactics, situational awareness, decision making under stress, post shooting, etc.
     

    doddg

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    I'm not going to address all of the outdated and just wrong info in the first post but I can't let this go without comment.
    No, the results aren't good. They might be acceptable to someone who has nothing to compare it against, but there's a reason nobody of any standing teaches this BS. Poor recoil control, poor retention, poor accuracy, etc.
    Point shooting sucks. The "pointer finger index" sucks even more. You can learn to index shoot when you are stationary, your target is stationary, and the distance is relatively short. You can even learn to make hits out to 25y or so...but at that point you'll be slower than sighted fire. Moving targets, you're screwed.
    Take a fundamentals class from Coach or elsewhere. Feel free to sign up for my class this Sept if you get the fundamentals and gun safety on board. Don't show up point shooting or pulling a trigger with a middle finger (unless you're missing your trigger finger). My class isn't about how to shoot, it's tactics, situational awareness, decision making under stress, post shooting, etc.

    1. I know nothing of "point shooting" just showing what I had found about what a person would need to learn for what has been touted in classic statistics, just to find out: "lies, damn lies and statistics." As a teacher of history it isn't surprising to find that everyone has an agenda (propaganda) and a person seeking truth has to learn how to weed through the distortions.
    2. Doesn't seem to matter how I try to learn the next step: it's the wrong step, discouraging.
    3. Everybody has an opinion and those opinions conflict. That's why I'm here to get real-world practical advice from people who are experienced and know where the bull is and where not to step up to your ankles in it.
    4. I truly am counting on getting solid advice/direction here to keep me from going down a wrong direction: I have already received such in private emails probably from people that don't want to hear the criticism that stems from the critics of everything.
    5. I think this "Coach" is the same as "Aron" which you and others have mentioned is that right direction, and seems to be a great lead and exactly what I'm looking for: beginner, intermediate and defensive classes.
    6. You mention you provide classes, but I need to have prerequisites first: "fundamentals and gun safety."
    7. I did a quick check of classes on one of the sites mentioned and the classes I needed are not available this summer (or already been given), but I only checked one of the sites, maybe more is available elsewhere for beginners and the next level. There was a defensive class in Sept., but there was 2 prerequisite classes: beginner and intermediate that were recommended first.
    8. I will continue trying to seek out a proper training venue and I know whatever I decide some will say: wrong, but, I am determined to do something rather than nothing.
    9. The clock is ticking and I know my need gets greater every year older I get. Let me reword that: every month I get older.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Coach is Aron. We team up to teach a class about twice a year.

    As far as stuff that conflicts, there's zero conflict among competition shooters and professional gun fighters. Nobody uses point shooting or that index finger BS. Everybody teaches to use the sights and "see as much of the sights as you need" outside of retention shooting. That might be indexing with the slide, it might be getting the front sight somewhere in the notch, it might be a hard front sight focus, it depends on distance and time.

    There's some different ideas in the minutae. There's very little in the basic fundamentals.
     

    doddg

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    Coach is Aron. We team up to teach a class about twice a year.

    As far as stuff that conflicts, there's zero conflict among competition shooters and professional gun fighters. Nobody uses point shooting or that index finger BS. Everybody teaches to use the sights and "see as much of the sights as you need" outside of retention shooting. That might be indexing with the slide, it might be getting the front sight somewhere in the notch, it might be a hard front sight focus, it depends on distance and time.

    There's some different ideas in the minutae. There's very little in the basic fundamentals.

    1. Makes sense.
     
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