Safety, decocker or nothing

[doddg]

I am going to put myself up for criticism (again ), but I don't "get it."
Ggreen tried explaining it to me when I bought his CZ with a choice between a decocker and a safety (decocker on it now) and I thought I "got it" but I have nagging doubts again.


To my limited grasp of it, it is essential to have a safety so a person doesn't have an accidental discharge for whatever the reason: you even read of discarges that can't/shouldn't happen, but do.


I am hyper-concerned about safety, and will not even carry a round in the chamber in a CC gun, unless there is a long D/A pull, which rules out many guns (Glocks).
You even hear/read of safeties getting accidentally put in the wrong position.
Even my beloved Shield 9mm does not have a safety on it, but seems to have a longer "1st pull."
This is 1 of the reasons I CC a revolver with a long D/A pull (S/W hammerless snubbie), since it is DAO, it is strictly an emergency up-close defensive tool (the quintessential 7 yds.).


When a gun is in decocker mode, what is the advantage for the 1st shot? Why not leave it in the longer D/A 1st pull mode before the S/A engages with the 2nd and following shots?


Forgive my ignorance, I've not manipuated a decocker much, except that the range with my Ruger P89, and I didn't "get it."


For my range guns, it doesn't matter, but if I would choose to CC a range gun on an occassion, I need to understand the pros/cons fully to take advantage of the mechanics available.


Again, sorry for yet another area which I have a big "hole/gap" in my gun background (nearly all revolvers, so I didn't grow up with it in my 20s).


I can google it and find all knowledge, I'm just being lazy and there is something to be said about the short version of "Safeties and Decockers for Dummies" version.

 

[doddg]

I just was examining my Ruger P89 with its decocker, and I still don't get it.
The trigger pull seems as long in decocker mode as it does in D/A mode; so I don't see what protection it is for a person who is not going to keep one in the chamber (w/o a safety), unless the trigger pull is sufficient for the person using the gun.
If it just for protection if you drop it, so it can't fire: I get that.

I am googling it (resting after mowing for only 30 minutes ).
After reading a posting: I still don't get it.
I'll keep reading.

 

[gregkl]

Not sure what you are really asking for I'll take a stab; The decocker does just what it's named. After you load a mag, rack the slide sending a round into the chamber, you are now holding a pistol with a cocked hammer. If it was a 1911, you'd engage the safety and put in your holster. This is call carrying Condition 1 or "cocked and locked". If you were to lower the hammer on that 1911 ( I don't recommend to) when you wanted to fire it, you would have to manually cock the hammer to be able to shoot it.

With a decocker, after you chamber that first round, you engage the decocker. Then when you are ready to shoot, you just pull the trigger and it cocks the hammer and releases it to send that first round downrange.

Not sure if this makes sense but others will provide you input and add to/correct what I have written.

 

[Bigtanker]

[video=youtube_share;Lg2agReY49I]http://youtu.be/Lg2agReY49I[/video]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

There is no "decocker mode". A decocker is used to lower the hammer automatically without a trigger pull, returning a DA/SA to DA mode.

With a DA/SA, the hammer is down when carried (variations exist where the decocker an also be used for a safety, but let's stick with traditional DA/SA). When you fire the gun, the first trigger pull will be DA, all subsequent shots will be SA until decocked. Some will disagree, but for real world use the decocker is used whenever you would safe a gun equipped with a thumb safety, such as when moving but not shooting. The gun should be decocked before being holstered.

Trigger pull weight and length is just more margin of error. You can still screw it up, you just need to work a bit harder at it.

Personally, I have zero use for a thumb safety on a fighting gun. If you do, you've got to practice until you can't get it wrong. Standing, knocked down, while entangled, while injured, etc. I broke my thumb in a fight in a manner that would have made it exceedingly difficult to work a thumb safety. I've seen the results of folks who thought they could always get it off when it mattered and they didn't. That doesn't mean everyone can't, of course, but I think a lot of folks who think they can haven't really put in the work and may find out different when the chips are down.

 

[gregkl]

See there. BT came along with a better explanation and video!

 

[Areoflyer09]

The decocker simply decocks the hammer. It doesn’t change the double action mode.

When you rack the slide yoh you load the chamber and cock the hammer. This gives the lighter single action mode. The decocker undies this and ours it back in double action, without needing to manually lower the hammer. The DA action is typically long and heavy, like a lot of revolvers have. Thus keeping it decocked limits the need or want for a physical safety as well.

Glocks are another bag of worms. They have several internal/ external passive safeties that we also see on other striker fired fins now. I call them passive because you don’t go out of your way to activate it, thy aren’t switches on the slide. Keep the trigger covered with a solid holster and a striker fired gun is safe. Choose a floppy holster or no holster and you run the risk of something catching the trigger and bypassing those safeties.

Edit: BBI & Gregki have better explanations I think.

 

[doddg]

Not sure what you are really asking for I'll take a stab; The decocker does just what it's named. After you load a mag, rack the slide sending a round into the chamber, you are now holding a pistol with a cocked hammer. If it was a 1911, you'd engage the safety and put in your holster. This is call carrying Condition 1 or "cocked and locked". If you were to lower the hammer on that 1911 ( I don't recommend to) when you wanted to fire it, you would have to manually cock the hammer to be able to shoot it.

1. I understand "cocked and locked" (or so I thought).
2. You said, "If you were to lower the hammer on that 1911." I thought the purpose of a "cocked and locked" was not to lower the hammer.
3. I assume by, "when you wanted to fire it, you would have to manually cock the hammer to be able to shoot it, that you mean if you have lowered the hammer. But, even if you pulled back the hammer, isn't the safety still on and you would have to pull the trigger back (if you had lowered it, which you said you wouldn't recommend), or does the safety disengage when you pull the hammer back? (sorry for my lack of experience in this area)

With a decocker, after you chamber that first round, you engage the decocker. Then when you are ready to shoot, you just pull the trigger and it cocks the hammer and releases it to send that first round downrange.

4. But, it seems that you are doing the same thing even if you had not engaged the decocker: you are just pulling the trigger.

Not sure if this makes sense but others will provide you input and add to/correct what I have written.

5. I'm a linear thinker, and perhaps you are taking for granted a step which I'm missing that is obvious (running into the same thing reading online.
6. I'm sure it will "click" when I pour over comments and put the pieces together, but I yet don't see what a decocker does that the D/A 1st pull doesn't do.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

but I yet don't see what a decocker does that the D/A 1st pull doesn't do.

The decocker does nothing when the gun is in DA mode. It returns the gun from SA to DA. It's a reset button.

 

[doddg]

[video=youtube_share;Lg2agReY49I]http://youtu.be/Lg2agReY49I[/video]

1. I have that on my tab right now!!!

2. Perfect vid: I'm smart now.

3. After reading what other's said, watching the vid was a good review and summary.

 

[Areoflyer09]

The decocker takes a pistol that’s in single action and puts in back in double action, if it is capable of doing so.

 

[doddg]

The decocker does nothing when the gun is in DA mode. It returns the gun from SA to DA. It's a reset button.

1. Now, that could be the missing piece to the puzzle: WOW! I think I get it now!
2. So far in things I've read, noone has pointed out the obvious!
3. It's like the embarrassing episode where I couldn't get the slide off my Glock 26 b/c noone (until I got to my 6th online search) pointed out that both sides had to be pushed down on the slide to release (after pulling slide back a few hairs); now I can take it off in the normal 2 seconds.

 

[doddg]

There is no "decocker mode". A decocker is used to lower the hammer automatically without a trigger pull, returning a DA/SA to DA mode.

With a DA/SA, the hammer is down when carried (variations exist where the decocker an also be used for a safety, but let's stick with traditional DA/SA). When you fire the gun, the first trigger pull will be DA, all subsequent shots will be SA until decocked. Some will disagree, but for real world use the decocker is used whenever you would safe a gun equipped with a thumb safety, such as when moving but not shooting. The gun should be decocked before being holstered.

Trigger pull weight and length is just more margin of error. You can still screw it up, you just need to work a bit harder at it.

Personally, I have zero use for a thumb safety on a fighting gun. If you do, you've got to practice until you can't get it wrong. Standing, knocked down, while entangled, while injured, etc. I broke my thumb in a fight in a manner that would have made it exceedingly difficult to work a thumb safety. I've seen the results of folks who thought they could always get it off when it mattered and they didn't. That doesn't mean everyone can't, of course, but I think a lot of folks who think they can haven't really put in the work and may find out different when the chips are down.

1. Your explanation is a world of education and I thank you for taking the time.
2. What I hear you saying is that a person like myself should not be hung up on a "safety" b/c in the real world, with my lack of training and experience, especially in a "grappling" situation, a safety would be a barrier.
3. I have always been drawn to the long D/A pull for safety reasons (like my S/W Bodyguard), but yet defense was just a "trigger-pull" away: simplicity.
4. I can't imagine putting a gun in S/A mode in a holster: I'm way to paranoid to take that chance.
5. Now I'm wondering what people do with only S/A like I had on my Colt Mustang. (I never kept one in the chamber, and I think there was a safety for those that would)
6. Again: thanks!

 

[doddg]

The decocker does nothing when the gun is in DA mode. It returns the gun from SA to DA. It's a reset button.

1. I'm sure you would have been quite entertained this am with my Ruger P89 to see me trying to figure out what the decocker was doing when I engaged it in D/A mode.

 

[gmcttr]

The decocker does nothing when the gun is in DA mode. It returns the gun from SA to DA. It's a reset button.

In addition to this, you 'could' return the gun from SA to DA by holding the hammer with your thumb and pulling the trigger while lowering the hammer but this is risky business. One slip and it goes bang. The decocker let's you lower the hammer back to DA SAFELY. Often (always?) the decocker lowered position is to a "half cock" notch keeping the hammer completely off of the firing pin for additional safety.

 

[WebSnyper]

Even my beloved Shield 9mm does not have a safety on it, but seems to have a longer "1st pull."

Everyone has explained the DA/SA decocker stuff very well and looks like you have that well covered now.

However, wanted to point out that your Shield should have the same pull every time, like the Glock. The Shield may have a bit more trigger take up than the Glock, but nonetheless, it should be the same every time and there should be no difference in a "1st pull".

 

[Trigger Time]

Hurry and get that training we talked about sooner than later. You need to be comfortable with your carry gun and you need to always carry with a round in the chamber. Use a proper holster, keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire, make sure there is no mag and an empty chamber before disassembly and cleaning, and you are not going to have an accidental or negligent discharge.
Everything you addressed above even the misunderstandings of how each type of your guns work is a training and practice issue, easily corrected. You arent dumb. You just need to get trained on your specific firearms and also fundamentals of shooting and safety and then putting them all into practice on the range.
I'm not an instructor so dont take my word usage too literally. I'm not hip on all the cool words.
Also I highly recomend that you pic what type of gun you want to learn first and carry and then stick with it until you are comfortable manipulating it and cleaning and shooting it.
So if you want a striker fired gun stay with that for now. If you want a DA/SA gun stick with that.
You're gonna make a mistake possibly thats gonna make a bullet hole in something you dont want it in or maybe you.

 

[Trigger Time]

Everyone has explained the DA/SA decocker stuff very well and looks like you have that well covered now.

However, wanted to point out that your Shield should have the same pull every time, like the Glock. The Shield may have a bit more trigger take up than the Glock, but nonetheless, it should be the same every time and there should be no difference in a "1st pull".

Exactly I saw that too. Unless hes meaning learning the reset.
And the other trigger you dont want is a dead trigger in a gun fight or a click and no bang and you will get those for sure by carrying no round in the chamber

 

[JettaKnight]

There is no "decocker mode". A decocker is used to lower the hammer automatically without a trigger pull, returning a DA/SA to DA mode.

Maybe he's talking about a CZ (e.g. P-07) where you can change it from having a safety or a decocker?


Nevermind.

 

[IndyTom]

Maybe he's talking about a CZ (e.g. P-07) where you can change it from having a safety or a decocker?


Nevermind.

This is partially correct -

Ggreen tried explaining it to me when I bought his CZ with a choice between a decocker and a safety (decocker on it now) and I thought I "got it" but I have nagging doubts again.

But I'm wondering if he never actually lowered the hammer with the decocker while at the range, because it is pretty obvious what it does when used on a fully cocked pistol.