The old debate

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  • Leadeye

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    Small and fast or big and slow, the great handgun cartridge debate. Here's part of the story.

    Colt had tried unsuccessfully to sell the army on it's 1878 model revolver, a early large double action with characteristics of both the past and future. Having failed to reliably fire hard primer 45 Colt army cartridges Colt tried again by installing a more powerful hammer spring, adding a longer trigger and larger guard to make the DA pull less hard. Still rejected by the army which was more interested in the new swing out cylinder guns chambered in 38 Long Colt some of these guns are ordered. They make their way not to American officers but to the Philippine Constabulary in 1902. Then governor Taft was looking for Colt revolvers, Krag rifles, and Winchester shotguns to arm the newly formed police force, but gets these cast offs and 45-70 Springfields.

    With the Moro rebellion, the story goes that army officers are finding that these tribesmen are absorbing 38 Long Colt bullets without much effect but are probably surprised to see their allies in the Constabulary getting the desired results with these rejects. These stories circulate back to the brass where changes are made that will last for a long time. The Thompson LaGuarde tests in 1904 provide evidence that supports the stories from the Philippines, and the US military decides handguns need to be 45 Caliber.

    Pictured is a Colt 1878 Philippine model from 1902 complete with it's army acceptance marks from chief inspector Renaldo A. Carr, and if you look closely, the same John T. Thompson who would go on to history first performing the tests in 1904 and then to the submachinegun that bears his name. At the time a young officer working in the ordinance department.

    Sadly the army sold these modified 1878s to Bannerman arms after the war where they moved on to the civilian market. They never received much attention in the history books, but holding and shooting one is like being part of the story.:)
     
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    Leadeye

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    Love it LE. Most cool.
    I have heard a few variations on that story.

    I think there were probably a lot of different stories came out of that conflict. Colt quickly offered their New Service revolver in 45 Colt which the army designated the 1909. The 1878 quickly faded away.
     
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    I have always been a proponent of the Thompson-LaGuarde inquiry, bolstered by my personal experience in numerous shootings where the .38/9mm simply didn't get the job done.
     

    churchmouse

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    I have always been a proponent of the Thompson-LaGuarde inquiry, bolstered by my personal experience in numerous shootings where the .38/9mm simply didn't get the job done.

    But the "New" argument is the 9mm has come so far as to be comparable to the .45 ACP. I just do not see it. JMHO as I have done a few non-scientific tests of my own. .38 is a round that I trust as a SD option in a small bug.
     
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    But the "New" argument is the 9mm has come so far as to be comparable to the .45 ACP. I just do not see it. JMHO as I have done a few non-scientific tests of my own. .38 is a round that I trust as a SD option in a small bug.

    I agree the 9mm has came along way in just the last few years. Up until couple years ago I was a strictly 40/45 shooter. I now have added a few "wonder nines" to the rotation and carry 9mm quite a bit. But in the end we all know what counts more than anything is shot placement.
     

    churchmouse

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    I agree the 9mm has came along way in just the last few years. Up until couple years ago I was a strictly 40/45 shooter. I now have added a few "wonder nines" to the rotation and carry 9mm quite a bit. But in the end we all know what counts more than anything is shot placement.

    I have ventured into the 9mm because I like the CZ's and my spouse runs them pretty well. The 1911's and the CZ 97 (.45) are a bit rough on her.
    There are some decent defense rounds in 9mm but I still like the .45 and I am also delving into 10mm.

    Yes, shot placement is the real key in all of this.
     

    two70

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    Cartridge/caliber choice has long and wrongly been blamed for the results of poor bullet selection and performance.
     

    natdscott

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    Ah yes...muffins for hands, or raccoons for feet.....the great questions of our age.
     

    Sigblitz

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    But the "New" argument is the 9mm has come so far as to be comparable to the .45 ACP. I just do not see it. JMHO as I have done a few non-scientific tests of my own. .38 is a round that I trust as a SD option in a small bug.

    I watched this unfold with my brother in law, a Marion County Sheriff Seargent, IMPD Reserve Seargent. (I have a lot of sister's and brother in laws.) He was issued a 40, but qualified with a personal 9mm backup gun. IMPD went to the 17M and they got recalled and back to the G22. He's 100% 9mm now due to qualifying shot placement. Fine with me because I have his G22 now and the trigger is sweet. I prefer 40. My wife shoots 40. We do ok with the shot placement. She'll bring her target over and brag. I had the 10mm but sold it. No shot placement on that one. I don't hunt bear so out the door it went. I'll agree shot placement would be easier on the nine but to me it's not worth the trade off. I would pick the 9mm over the 10mm and the 40 over the 9mm.
     

    Sigblitz

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    I have ventured into the 9mm because I like the CZ's and my spouse runs them pretty well. The 1911's and the CZ 97 (.45) are a bit rough on her.
    There are some decent defense rounds in 9mm but I still like the .45 and I am also delving into 10mm.

    Yes, shot placement is the real key in all of this.

    I have a 75B stainless for plinking. Sights, grips, guide rod, and springs were changed. Sear filed for barely positive engagement. Great plinker.
     
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