Range: .22LR to begin elimination of Semi-Autos.

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  • doddg

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    I achieved a goal of trimming down to one .22LR revolver.
    I kept a Dan Wesson 8" barrel, 54 oz monster I just bought off a member, and sold all my other .22LR revolvers including my Ruger GP100 and Taurus Tracker 990 recently.
    The process will be so much more difficult with my semi-automatic .22LR b/c I have already trimmed the weakest (in my hands) like SW MP Compact, Sig Sauer 250, Walther and a few others.
    The ones left are going to take a bit of testing and it is going to come down to a flip of a coin or other things besides the targets.
    For example: I hate loading the Colt Target magazine, while the others are more fluid with the GSS being a dream to load (shot only 3 rounds b/c it must need cleaned: FT Fire and FT Eject).
    Which is the weakest according to the targets? It changes from range trip to range trip b/c of me. :ugh:
    Beretta weakest in the 30' but not the 40' :scratch:
    I have a Smith 41 (bought off a member), Browning 7" barrel, and a Ruger Charger (bought off a member) and am waiting till this summer to shoot it, that are not represented here.

    Here are a couple of pics with 40' using a rest (just a gun box), and 30' two-handed.
    Using a Colt Target , which was bought off a member (pic since it's from 1997-98, I think):
    AVnOnW8.jpg



    S/W 22A, wood & cameo grips bought off a member (pics since it is not made anymore (I switched grips and kept the bigger cameo, selling the other):
    bSAFWLv.jpg

    eFJOK67.jpg


    I didn't put pics of the Ruger Mark 4 Target or S/W Victory or Beretta M9-22 since they are common enough.

    40' using a gun box for a rest.
    bn5P2XG.jpg



    30' using 2 hands:
    OH6MOJV.jpg
     
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    cbhausen

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    I just got reacquainted with my Ruger Mark IV target at the range the other day. I did a practice run of the NRA instructor qualification test. I didn’t have a proper target so I painted a 10 inch plate white and went at it. To qualify, one must put 16 of 20 rounds into a 6 inch group from 15 yards. I dropped 19 of 20 into about 3 1/2 inches. The lone flyer came early in the string and kind of pissed me off because I biffed the trigger press. I’ve bought and sold a lot of pistols and the Mark IV Target is one of my all-time favorites. Sorry it’s rotated 90° counterclockwise.

    248FF51F-85AF-4D9D-891D-392ADD12A223.jpg
     

    doddg

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    I just got reacquainted with my Ruger Mark IV target at the range the other day. I did a practice run of the NRA instructor qualification test. I didn’t have a proper target so I painted a 10 inch plate white and went at it. To qualify, one must put 16 of 20 rounds into a 6 inch group from 15 yards. I dropped 19 of 20 into about 3 1/2 inches. The lone flyer came early in the string and kind of pissed me off because I biffed the trigger press. I’ve bought and sold a lot of pistols and the Mark IV Target is one of my all-time favorites. Sorry it’s rotated 90° counterclockwise.

    View attachment 75780


    I saw this online:
    "The NRA Instructor Training Course is designed to teach you how to teach others .... blank 9 inch diameter paper target at a distance of 15 yards."
    and another:
    "For the instructor level, use the NRA Instructor Training Qualification Target. Have the student shoot 20 shots from 45 feet."

    The grouping looks amazing to me.
    My Ruger Mark 4 is a favorite foundation that a member here loves to build on, as you can see on the Rimfire thread that was started by Areoflyer.
     
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    drm-hp

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    Nice shooting sir.
    When I wish to realize how poor of a handgun shot I am, I get out the S&W 41 with a Clark barrel. This gun is so accurate it shows everything I do wrong, I shot this gun 50' indoor smallbore with my daughter. The fun gun is a S&W K-22, I just hit what I aim at, it's fun.
    Doug
     

    doddg

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    Nice shooting sir.
    When I wish to realize how poor of a handgun shot I am, I get out the S&W 41 with a Clark barrel. This gun is so accurate it shows everything I do wrong, I shot this gun 50' indoor smallbore with my daughter. The fun gun is a S&W K-22, I just hit what I aim at, it's fun.
    Doug

    There was a Smith 41 with 2 barrels, one a long Clark barrel that was for sale months ago, and I've wondered if I should have spent more money and bought that one.
    There are some great older Smith revolvers like the K-22 that look like, and by reputation, are great shooters, but they do bring a premium in price.
    When I want to be humbled, I shoot 40' or might even take it out to 50' to really feel badly about my skill level, but there is always 20' to perk one up. :laugh:
     

    700 LTR 223

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    There was a Smith 41 with 2 barrels, one a long Clark barrel that was for sale months ago, and I've wondered if I should have spent more money and bought that one.

    At distances of 25 yards or less any 41 or even Ruger MK Series should capable of dime or nickel size groups with the right ammo - a 5.5" or 7" should not make much difference except for the long sight radius. I am not sure of the balance between the two 41 barrels as I have only fired my 5.5" version. Adding a red dot will do wonders if you are like me and have a lot of problems with open sights.

    On your targets I would have a lot more difficulty trying to shoot a tight groups with the targets you use at 40 feet as compared to the targets you use at 30 feet. I actually ordered a 100 of the targets like your 30 foot targets per your recommendation a while back. I use these at 15 yards and even fired a decent group with a Glock 42. If I shoot tomorrow I may even try them at 25 yards with my 357s.
     

    doddg

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    At distances of 25 yards or less any 41 or even Ruger MK Series should capable of dime or nickel size groups with the right ammo - a 5.5" or 7" should not make much difference except for the long sight radius. I am not sure of the balance between the two 41 barrels as I have only fired my 5.5" version. Adding a red dot will do wonders if you are like me and have a lot of problems with open sights.

    On your targets I would have a lot more difficulty trying to shoot a tight groups with the targets you use at 40 feet as compared to the targets you use at 30 feet. I actually ordered a 100 of the targets like your 30 foot targets per your recommendation a while back. I use these at 15 yards and even fired a decent group with a Glock 42. If I shoot tomorrow I may even try them at 25 yards with my 357s.

    25 yards? 75 feet?!!! Dime/nickel groups! :wow:
    I can't even do silver dollar groups at 20' and especially 30'.
    I will add a red dot that I have probably this summer when I have narrowed done the "herd."
    I bought a Ruger Charger from a member here with a red dot on it: looking forward to some good grouping, but I can't imagine even quarter size groups at 75'.
    I'll have some more targets that I bought that I'll be using that are different, but for comparative reasons, I want to stick with the old ones.
    My Glock 42 shot better than my Glock 43 when I had them in my hands.
     

    cbhausen

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    25 yards? 75 feet?!!! Dime/nickel groups! :wow:
    I can't even do silver dollar groups at 20' and especially 30'.
    I will add a red dot that I have probably this summer when I have narrowed done the "herd."
    I bought a Ruger Charger from a member here with a red dot on it: looking forward to some good grouping, but I can't imagine even quarter size groups at 75'.
    I'll have some more targets that I bought that I'll be using that are different, but for comparative reasons, I want to stick with the old ones.
    My Glock 42 shot better than my Glock 43 when I had them in my hands.

    Quarter-size groups at 25 yards is 4 MOA, the standard for Appleseed and Revere’s Riders rifle qualification. This is also a military standard for rifle marksmanship. Precision rifle shooting is 1 MOA or less. 4 MOA offhand with a pistol is great shooting. By comparison, that group I posted on the white plate is about 24 MOA.
     

    doddg

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    Quarter-size groups at 25 yards is 4 MOA, the standard for Appleseed and Revere’s Riders rifle qualification. This is also a military standard for rifle marksmanship. Precision rifle shooting is 1 MOA or less. 4 MOA offhand with a pistol is great shooting. By comparison, that group I posted on the white plate is about 24 MOA.

    I can't imagine such precision shooting; it will be fun to see it sometime.
     

    700 LTR 223

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    25 yards? 75 feet?!!! Dime/nickel groups! :wow:
    I can't even do silver dollar groups at 20' and especially 30'.

    I was definitely not trying to imply that anyone shooting freehanded should be shooting dime or nickel size groups. The guns are capable - it is the shooter that is the limiting factor. Back in the 1990s when I used to shoot in the Muncie Pistol Clubs indoor bullseye league I tested my MKII with a 2X scope and rest and it was no great feat to fire a dime or nickel size group at 25 yards.
     

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    doddg

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    I was definitely not trying to imply that anyone shooting freehanded should be shooting dime or nickel size groups. The guns are capable - it is the shooter that is the limiting factor. Back in the 1990s when I used to shoot in the Muncie Pistol Clubs indoor bullseye league I tested my MKII with a 2X scope and rest and it was no great feat to fire a dime or nickel size group at 25 yards.

    In the attached picture the top target was fired at a 50M silhouette range , the center is 25yards , lower left 25 yards and lower right at 50ft with a Tasco Pro Point off a range box. All 10 shot groups.
    View attachment 75844

    I can't shoot that well at 12 feet! :draw:
     

    doddg

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    Today was the GSG 1911-22; Beretta M9-22; Browning Buckmark Hunter 7" barrel & S/W 22A.
    Hard to trim any particular one, although over time there will be a pattern of consistency (hopefully).

    What is the weakest today: Beretta M9-22?
    What was the strongest: GSG 1911-22?
    fmAL2TU.jpg




    Easier to put numbers to it using the 5 in 1 targets.
    Strongest: Browning Buckmark?
    Weakest: ??
    Should I count only the ones in the red circle?
    jMclvbe.jpg



    Well, at least comparing 30 shots at close range (20') shows that the Buckmark Browning Hunter is by far the best over the GSG 1911-22 using the torso & head.
    In the small targets at the bottom, the Browning Buckmark beats out the GSG 1911 also.
    The Browning, Beretta M9 and SW 22A all get 8 shots inside the circles.
    There could a round going through where there is another round since there should be 10 rounds on each target, but perhaps I didn't load up enough.
    Tough decision. Just trying to find the strongest and weakest, so as to eliminate the weakest.
    When It comes time to narrow down among the strongest it is going to be tough.
    I'm interested to see if the venerable Smith 41 can beat out the top contenders.
    Since I'm the weak point in all this, even if I had one of Areoflyer's Volquartson 11" barrels, it probably would not make a difference in my hands, shooting w/o a rest.
    lfJs7jo.jpg
     
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    mcapo

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    Without a set of calipers and five shot groups it's hard to glean too much from the targets.

    It seems the Buckmark and the SW could be the most precise and maybe the SW the most accurate?

    While I know your explanation of your methodology; you if really want to the find the "most accurate" of the group, you are going to have to start with ammo testing each gun to find what it shoots best and then draw conclusions.

    I recently picked up a X-ring TacSol Orange Creamsicle off of our mutual enabler Turbo. In order to determine its accuracy, I started with 10 types of ammo. Narrowed it down to 7 and then four to determine what it shoot the best. In the same gun (from a rest) I had five shoot groups ranging for 1.11" to .31" in the "best of seven" ammo group.

    You need to do that to EACH pistol to really answer your question.
     
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    doddg

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    Without a set of calipers and five shot groups it's hard to glean too much from the targets.

    It seems the Buckmark and the SW could be the most precise and maybe the SW the most accurate?


    Your 5 shot approach is what I'll do when it gets down to the few.
    Right now I am down to 9 semi-autos and would like to trim 4 of those.
    There is only one I would sell today if I had to (Beretta M9-22), but even it has its moments of brilliance.
    Yes, the Buckmark keeps doing well, and I can't believe that the SW 22A keeps putting in some strong numbers.
    I'll have to compare the "scores" of these to the Ruger Mark 4, SW Victory and Colt Target.
    I will need to do some tweaking of the rear sights, but I have been told to look at groups for now, since accuracy can be "dialed" in.
     

    NHT3

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    I'm sure you realize that ammo can have a huge effect on accuracy, for example a Ruger MK4 might shoot well with CCIs while another MK4 suffers accuracy wise with the same ammmo. To answer your question since you have a S&W 41 why not sell them all? You can only shoot one at a time and none of them are comparable to the 41:).

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT]
    [FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]
     

    doddg

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    I'm sure you realize that ammo can have a huge effect on accuracy, for example a Ruger MK4 might shoot well with CCIs while another MK4 suffers accuracy wise with the same ammmo. To answer your question since you have a S&W 41 why not sell them all? You can only shoot one at a time and none of them are comparable to the 41:).

    [FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / [/FONT]Basic Pistol instructor[FONT=&amp] / RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
    [/FONT][FONT=&amp]Aron Bright[/FONT]


    I would be glad to do that, it would simplify everything so much.
    That is where I'm headed when I prove that my guns that cost 1/3 of the Smith 41 don't shoot as well.
    So far, I have not been that impressed yet but I guess I was looking for a big difference (like getting all 10 rounds in the red at 50' :laugh:), but haven't found that to be the case in my hands so far.

    I am trying to find the weakest ones to cull from the herd while I'm on Spring Brk.
    The real work will come this summer when I have more time.
    Tomorrow, I'm leaving the house at 5:30 am and won't get home until 9:30 pm: you just got to love "vacation time."
    Some of that is driving to Columbus, IN to shoot with a member and he wants me to bring the Smith 41, so it will get a workout on some steel plates. :thumbsup:
     

    BE Mike

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    At distances of 25 yards or less any 41 or even Ruger MK Series should capable of dime or nickel size groups with the right ammo - a 5.5" or 7" should not make much difference except for the long sight radius. I am not sure of the balance between the two 41 barrels as I have only fired my 5.5" version. Adding a red dot will do wonders if you are like me and have a lot of problems with open sights.

    On your targets I would have a lot more difficulty trying to shoot a tight groups with the targets you use at 40 feet as compared to the targets you use at 30 feet. I actually ordered a 100 of the targets like your 30 foot targets per your recommendation a while back. I use these at 15 yards and even fired a decent group with a Glock 42. If I shoot tomorrow I may even try them at 25 yards with my 357s.
    As someone who wasted decades shooting bullseye pistol matches...THIS^^^^^^^^^^^
     

    doddg

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    Spent 3.5 hrs. with a member in Columbus, IN shooting at an outdoor range ringing some steel along with some paper targets.
    Had a chance to have him help dialing in the SW 41, and improve its accuracy so the groupings were more on the bullseye.
    It could be the the one to keep and sell the others (or at least half of them): we'll see. (It has been suggested by 2 members).

    When I learn to shoot, it should be a keeper. :laugh:
    The member who was with me had never shot a Smith 41 before and he really loved the trigger on it along with the weight, and he had done some competition shooting with a stock Ruger years ago and could appreciate it. (not to be confused with Areoflyer's Rugers-on-steroids! :lmfao:
    My SW 41 bought off a member here:
    jAq8MDN.jpg

    SxFQqEq.jpg


    I also had time to dial in the 7" Browning Buckmark Hunter that I bought recently to replace my 5.5" Buckmark.
    It was shooting to the right, and a little high, and we got it back in line, almost there.
    oZgTwVO.jpg


    He also enjoyed shooting my new Dan Wesson I just bought of a member here to replace my last two revolvers with its magnificent 8" barrel and 54 oz. mass.
    WdrA0up.jpg
     
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    doddg

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    Just to give you some perspective of the capabilities of .22 ammo and top target pistols, I submit this testing at 50 yards: https://www.bullseyeforum.net/t11986-pardini-22-group-testing

    :wow: Unbelievable for 50 yds./150'.
    I can do that well at 20', 30' on a good day, but probably not even 40': two-handed free hand.
    I do intend to have some fun with my gun rests this summer, but for now I'm too busy trying to find the next gun to sell b/c of retirement and the "hobby money" will be a thing of the past. Not so much an occasional buying, trying and selling, but the keeping of another.
    I think I might let my Beretta M9-22 go: I love it, but I love them all at this point and am determined to pare down half of my semi-autos.
    I waited for a year to get one with the right profile, but, the romance isn't there as in the past.
    If it was a real Beretta, not a Umarex, I'd feel differently.
    Or, I could end up like Coach and another have suggested: keep the Smith 41 and sell the rest.
    Although I love the different nuances. How do you sell a gun that is so inexpensive to have range time with?
    Trimming all other calibers down to the 9mm has not been too difficult.
    But: I really love my .22LRs.
     
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