.357 SIG...any one carry or shoot much anymore?

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  • Amishman44

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    Does anyone carry or shoot the .357 SIG caliber anymore?

    How does it compare ballistically to 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 acp...and, of course, .357 magnum itself?

    I've heard the stories, it's a 9mm on steriods, or it ain't a true '.357' magnum, and it only performs correctly in a longer barrel?

    Thoughts? Experience? Opinions? Facts?
     

    KWIndy

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    I see 357 Sig as being in that space with .40 -why not just go .45 or 10mm ?
    357 Mag is an different story though.
     

    pblanc

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    I have two SIG P229s chambered in .40 S&W and a 357 SIG barrel that I have used in both. I occasionally shoot 357 SIG at the range, but I shoot .40 S&W a lot more frequently with those pistols, largely because of the higher cost of 357 SIG FMJ ammunition. I would not personally pick 357 SIG over .40 S&W for carry or home defense.

    The 357 SIG does provide for greater muzzle velocity than .40 S&W or 9 mm Luger with a projectile of similar mass. Given the greater velocity, it does provide greater kinetic energy than .40 S&W or 9 mm Luger, but if you look at projectile momentum the 165 grain and 180 grain .40 S&W loads are usually superior. The faster 357 SIG projectile does shoot flatter, which can be advantageous if you want to shoot at a distance, but that will probably only become an advantage at ranges well past 25 yards. It is said that 357 SIG offers better barrier penetration, but I have seen that contention debated.

    If you look at ballistic gel testing that compares .40 S&W with 357 SIG using a consistent protocol, I do not see any great advantage of 357 SIG over .40 S&W. Lucky Gunner has tested a variety of 357 SIG loads. They have been criticized for using Clear Ballistic gel instead of calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin as used by the FBI, but they do use a consistent protocol that should provide a reasonable basis for comparison. The most common JHP loads from Speer, SIG Sauer, and Federal in 125 grain 357 SIG do not seem to offer better penetration/expansion than comparable .40 S&W loads in 180 grain.

    I think that for law enforcement use in which barrier penetration and accuracy at longer ranges might be beneficial, the 357 SIG cartridge might make sense. For typical civilian SD scenarios, I cannot see that it offer any advantages over .40 S&W. The increased muzzle flash, louder report, and questionably better barrier penetration could be disadvantages in home defense scenarios.

    As for recoil characteristics, IMO the are similar but different. The .40 S&W does seem to produce more muzzle rise where the 357 SIG is a quicker, sharper jab straight back. I don't really feel that I can shoot one rapidly more accurately than the other. The 357 SIG is fun to shoot, however, and I would probably do so more often if it were not for the ammo cost. I do sense that 357 SIG is fading into the sunset.
     
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    Ggreen

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    I carry a glock 32 everyday. There is nothing it can't do from a defensive carry perspective. Nothing it does a whole lot better than 9 or 40 either. Diversity makes life interesting
     

    Amishman44

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    I have two SIG P229s chambered in .40 S&W and a 357 SIG barrel that I have used in both. I occasionally shoot 357 SIG at the range, but I shoot .40 S&W a lot more frequently with those pistols, largely because of the higher cost of 357 SIG FMJ ammunition. I would not personally pick 357 SIG over .40 S&W for carry or home defense.

    The 357 SIG does provide for greater muzzle velocity than .40 S&W or 9 mm Luger with a projectile of similar mass. Given the greater velocity, it does provide greater kinetic energy than .40 S&W or 9 mm Luger, but if you look at projectile momentum the 165 grain and 180 grain .40 S&W loads are usually superior. The faster 357 SIG projectile does shoot flatter, which can be advantageous if you want to shoot at a distance, but that will probably only become an advantage at ranges well past 25 yards. It is said that 357 SIG offers better barrier penetration, but I have seen that contention debated.

    If you look at ballistic gel testing that compares .40 S&W with 357 SIG using a consistent protocol, I do not see any great advantage of 357 SIG over .40 S&W. Lucky Gunner has tested a variety of 357 SIG loads. They have been criticized for using Clear Ballistic gel instead of calibrated 10% ballistic gelatin as used by the FBI, but they do use a consistent protocol that should provide a reasonable basis for comparison. The most common JHP loads from Speer, SIG Sauer, and Federal in 125 grain 357 SIG do not seem to offer better penetration/expansion than comparable .40 S&W loads in 180 grain.

    I think that for law enforcement use in which barrier penetration and accuracy at longer ranges might be beneficial, the 357 SIG cartridge might make sense. For typical civilian SD scenarios, I cannot see that it offer any advantages over .40 S&W. The increased muzzle flash, louder report, and questionably better barrier penetration could be disadvantages in home defense scenarios.

    As for recoil characteristics, IMO the are similar but different. The .40 S&W does seem to produce more muzzle rise where the 357 SIG is a quicker, sharper jab straight back. I don't really feel that I can shoot one rapidly more accurately than the other. The 357 SIG is fun to shoot, however, and I would probably do so more often if it were not for the ammo cost. I do sense that 357 SIG is fading into the sunset.

    pblanc...pretty much in tune with what I've heard and experienced...
    IMO the only advantage in using .357 SIG is in a longer (5-6" barrel) where increased powder burn time, resulting in higher velocities, and a flatter trajectory result in a more accurate round at longer distances.
    I'm a huge .357 magnum fan, especially in 5-6" barrels for increased velocity, and the .357 SIG 'sounds' like it's comparable, however, in .40 S&W the 165 grain round is more than favorable for SD purposes and the felt recoil and muzzle rise is nominal for follow-up shots.
    I've tended to side with the 'bigger-is-better' philosophy for camping/hiking/hunting/home/personal defense and when you consider some of the .40 S&W loads from Double-Tap, especially in their Nosler 200 grain JHP version, from a 4.5" barrel, it's generating in excess of 500# of kinetic energy...it's tough to beat that.

    Double Tap .40 S&W: 40 S&W 150gr Controlled Expansion? JHP 20rds.

    Double Tap .357 SIG: 357 Sig 115gr. Nosler JHP 20rds.
     
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    KWIndy

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    If you look at the ballistic tests, the 10mm has a tendency to overpenetrate.

    I won't argue with that but would you go 357 Sig instead or a .45 or 9mm ?
    In a self defense, close up situation does 357 Sig offer anything that .45 or 9mm doesn't?

    Just like the OP I have always been curious about the 357 Sig so I am asking to learn, I was never able to justify the cost / benefit though.
     

    Ggreen

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    I won't argue with that but would you go 357 Sig instead or a .45 or 9mm ?
    In a self defense, close up situation does 357 Sig offer anything that .45 or 9mm doesn't?

    Just like the OP I have always been curious about the 357 Sig so I am asking to learn, I was never able to justify the cost / benefit though.

    Capacity and carry gun options compared to 45. 9mm probably nothing, but side by side it really makes steel sing a different tune.
     

    edporch

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    I like the .357 Sig round.
    It's my carry round unless I'm carrying my pocket Sig P365 9mm with 12 round mag.

    I have it in Sig P226, Sig 229, M&P .357Sig, Glock 32, Glock 33.
    I use Underwood .357 Sig 125 gr bonded jacketed HP 1475 fps 604 ft lbs
     

    Expat

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    Amishman44

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    The FBI recommends penetration of 12-18 inches in gelatin... over 18 would therefore by definition be overpenetration.

    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/

    the resuls on the 10s are interesting. Most of them that don’t overpenetrate are down in .40 land.

    I concur...I looked at 10mm a few years ago and decided not to waste the $$ on it as there were better calibers for the $$ anyhow...I have two (2) pistols that are set up for Double-Tap's .450 SMC and .45 Super...which runs comparable or even greater than 10mm runs...and for just the cost of a barrel change and a 24# recoil spring.
     

    Amishman44

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    I like the .357 Sig round.
    It's my carry round unless I'm carrying my pocket Sig P365 9mm with 12 round mag.
    I have it in Sig P226, Sig 229, M&P .357Sig, Glock 32, Glock 33.
    I use Underwood .357 Sig 125 gr bonded jacketed HP 1475 fps 604 ft lbs

    Underwood Ammo...smokin'...

    I prefer Double Tap Ammo...

    Both are good home / personal defense manufacturers.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    One of my brothers-in-law is a recently retired Federal Air Marshall. They were issued, carried, and trained with Sig pistols (either the 229 or 239) chambered in .357 Sig. I think it's the 125gr Speer Gold Dots. They would shoot thousands of rounds of it per year for training. Thousands. And they were allotted a certain # of rounds for on-your-own training as well.

    Rightly or wrongly, some of this on-your-own ammo made its way from ^ that guy to his brother - a current chief of police in a small Ohio town. And while that proverbial gravy train was chugging, this other brother-in-law of mine put a conversion barrel into his G22 and was carrying .357 Sig in his duty rig.

    BUT - the former brother retired and the gravy train stopped. So the other brother put his G22 barrel back into his G22 and is now rocking with a G17. 9mm, of course, due to ammo costs.

    I don't have much trigger time with the round - but I think it's pretty neat. And I think that a small PCC shooting it would be pretty neat.
     

    jinks

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    Expat

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    I ordered some more of that Federal HST at TargetSport. That half price with rebate on top of it, is a pretty good deal.
     
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