Open discussion: Pistol RDS options, reviews, thoughts...

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  • SmileDocHill

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    Mar 26, 2009
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    Westfield
    Putting a red dot sight on a pistol is not a new thing but they are gaining popularity and respect fast. Larry Vickers stated at the carbine clinic in Lebanon that he is convinced they are not the next fad but rather the new paradigm.

    Because of the recent upswing in utilization there are new ones coming out all the time. It feels a little like buying a computer in the 90's... When do you get what is available and when do you wait until the next evolution?


    What are your thoughts on:
    -Are the current offerings good enough to not result in needing to upgrade in a year or two? In other words, do the offerings currently available fulfill all the goals you would want so any new breakthroughs or design improvements will really just be icing on the cake?
    -Brands to avoid considering?

    The RDS LAV had was awesome but even he mentioned he would have moved the adjustment button to a different location. He has on several occasions accidentally hit the buttons when doing typical weapons manipulations. (He said verbally, live at the course but doesn't mention it online and frankly he admits it is picking at details.)

    I have a (Gen1 ?) S&W M&P 9mm currently with full APEX kit. Should I get one for my pistol or get a pistol already setup for one (2.0)? What are the factors to consider in making that decision?

    Who's rocking RDS's?
    Your opinion on your actual model, others available, or what you would have done differently?

    GO:
     

    jwamplerusa

    High drag, low speed...
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    I would specifically be interested in anyones experience with an M&P 2.0 9c with an RDS. Where the slide was cut, etc.

    Also interested in anyones experience with an Aimpoint ACRO.
     

    Hop

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    Yep, LAV was using an Aimpoint ACRO in his Advanced Carbine class. I looked hard at that one recently but decided to stay with Trijicon & had my G19X slide milled by ZRTactical for my SRO.

    I've been using a Trijicon RMR Dual (no battery, Tritium & fiber optic illuminated) on my Canik TP9 SFx pistol for a couple+ years now. I've let a ton of people give it a try and all have liked it so far. Hitting an 8" plate rack and 50 yards gets all too easy.

    It's tricky to find the dot out of the holster and takes some practice. Finding the front sight & placing it in the window helps to find the dot big time.

    I submerged the gun in muddy water & killed the RMR at a Run-n-Gun event. So even the good brands can die. Trijicon has always taken care of me & they were very helpful at NRAAM when comparing RDS & that's why I stuck with them.
    Will the SRO hold up? Probably. It doesn't look as rugged as the RMR but wow, it's SO much easier to find the dot and stay on the dot when shooting.

    I wanted to switch from the Canik to the Glock because I wanted to keep the rear sight. When the dot died on the Canik I was dead in the water (literally). The Glock got a "race cut" that puts the rear sight in front of the dot. It makes it easier for my old eyeballs to see everything.

    You are welcome to try out both pistols. I work across the parking lot from Point Blank Carmel & it's way to easy to grab a range lane.
     
    Last edited:

    Brad69

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    Jul 16, 2016
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    I think the front runner for me is the Walther Q5 Match it already has a sweet trigger and is RDS ready.
    Looks like Leo/Mil price on the ARCO is $504.71 pistol is about $650.00 so around $1200 with FFL and shipping.
    Normally I don’t jump on the new equipment train this fast but I think RDS have a advantage?

    I will have to hide this purchase from the wife she demands the same amount I spend in cash!

    BTW
    HOP,
    You are not supposed to shoot in bad weather conditions or in the mud just in air conditioned ranges no further than 25 yards!
     

    Vigilant

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    Jul 12, 2008
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    Trijicon RMR is the standard, and the Gen2 HRS is the best of those. I’m still not sold on the SRO, and am currently fiddling with a 507C, to see if it works out. As far as the ACRO, might as well mount a T1 or T2.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    Physiologically we, as humans, are "threat focused" when there is a threat towards us. Our eyeballs, while miraculous organs, still take precious time/thought to go between rear sight, front sight, and the threat. Then it's front sight to threat... Threat to front sight... Front sight to threat...

    Why not have an aiming system that lets you stay focused on the threat?

    By iron sight training, we're taught and taught and taught to focus on the front sight, right? If you're focused on the front sight, you physically cannot be focused on the threat. It's in these split seconds of non-focus that literal life-changing decisions are made/forced to be made.

    Look up Aaron Cowan / Sage Dynamics. Go to his site and download is PDF document about MRDS on pistols. Look at the hit % difference between iron sights and MRDS. Look at the difference in CRITICAL hits between irons and MRDS. R

    Look up his podcast with Practically Tactical.

    For DUTY use, the RMR and/or the Leupold Delta Point (And pro) are the only ones that'll stand up to a drop test.

    Plenty of other MRDS work fantastically for range work / competition. Some of them, like the Shield RMS or whatever it's called, just plain suck when you can scratch the lens just by cleaning it with a Tshirt.

    My opinion: If you're going to carry a gun with an MRDS - don't settle.

    I've resisted an MRDS on a pistol for a long time. My mind has been changed.
     

    Tactically Fat

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    I would specifically be interested in anyones experience with an M&P 2.0 9c with an RDS. Where the slide was cut, etc.

    Also interested in anyones experience with an Aimpoint ACRO.

    Man, I've scoured YouTube for videos that show the milling of an M&P slide - and I can't find it. I, too, would like to know. I want to know how the milling interacts with the striker block that's under the rear sight. I guess the MRDS holds the striker block down?

    From pics of completed slides, though, it looks like the factory dovetail becomes, essentially, the rear step/shelf of the MRDS pocket. Then the BUIS is dovetailed in behind that.
     

    SmileDocHill

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    Mar 26, 2009
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    Westfield
    Trijicon RMR is the standard, and the Gen2 HRS is the best of those. I’m still not sold on the SRO, and am currently fiddling with a 507C, to see if it works out. As far as the ACRO, might as well mount a T1 or T2.

    '...T1 or T2'... Are you saying that because it is big or because it is durable like the other Aimpoint offerings?
     

    Latewatch

    Sharpshooter
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    9   0   0
    Sep 13, 2012
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    Henryville, IN
    I've been carrying a Glock with an RMR on duty for almost 4 years now. I started looking at RDS sighted handguns because of aging eyes causing difficulty picking of the sights in intermediate light situations. So far the Gen 1 RMR has been rock solid. I change the batteries annually and coat the lens with anti-fog stuff about once a month. Have been playing with a Holosun 507c on another Glock for a few months now. I'm liking it so far but don't have enough time with it to feel totally confident with it on a work gun. If my eyes were 20 years younger, I'd still be using iron sights but as it is now the RMR gets me back to being able to make precise shots in intermediate light and also being back to being 100 yard capable with a handgun if required.
     

    Hop

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    I have a Holosun (solar backup type) and it turned itself off when in the safe. I couldn't get it to wake up. Tech support had me pressing all kinds of buttons on it & it's been good ever since. It must have reset itself but it doesn't make me trust it. It will NOT be going onto anything unless there are back up irons.
     

    blueboxer

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    7   0   0
    Sep 15, 2012
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    Physiologically we, as humans, are "threat focused" when there is a threat towards us. Our eyeballs, while miraculous organs, still take precious time/thought to go between rear sight, front sight, and the threat. Then it's front sight to threat... Threat to front sight... Front sight to threat...

    Why not have an aiming system that lets you stay focused on the threat?

    By iron sight training, we're taught and taught and taught to focus on the front sight, right? If you're focused on the front sight, you physically cannot be focused on the threat. It's in these split seconds of non-focus that literal life-changing decisions are made/forced to be made.

    Look up Aaron Cowan / Sage Dynamics. Go to his site and download is PDF document about MRDS on pistols. Look at the hit % difference between iron sights and MRDS. Look at the difference in CRITICAL hits between irons and MRDS. R

    Look up his podcast with Practically Tactical.

    For DUTY use, the RMR and/or the Leupold Delta Point (And pro) are the only ones that'll stand up to a drop test.

    Plenty of other MRDS work fantastically for range work / competition. Some of them, like the Shield RMS or whatever it's called, just plain suck when you can scratch the lens just by cleaning it with a Tshirt.

    My opinion: If you're going to carry a gun with an MRDS - don't settle.

    I've resisted an MRDS on a pistol for a long time. My mind has been changed.

    I second everything about Sage Dynamics/Aaron Cowan. OP, if you want to learn about red dots on pistols, that is THE place to go to for information. He has probably 8-10 hours of video on YouTube giving you everything you need to know, as well as continuing optic tests.

    I have used two guns (M&P Pro and now a CZ P-10C) with red dots. The CZ was milled by Jagerwerks, and I highly recommend them. This was my thought process on dot selection, which is joined at the hip with slide milling. If you are milling your slide DO NOT buy a cheap optic. By cheap, I mean anything that is not an RMR. I say that not out of red dot snobbery or some superior "I wont trust my life to ___" argument, but for these reasons:

    1) red dots are expensive, 2) milling is expensive, 3) milling commits you to an optic footprint. Because of that, you cant readily switch to another optic using a different footprint. If you are willing to buy/sell various optics to find something you like, get a pistol with a plate system from the factory and don't mill. That makes it easy to switch optics as you find what you like. Do NOT mill for an optic unless you are 100% certain you wont change from that optic. It is a terrible idea to (for example) spend a bunch buying a Burris FF3 and a mill job, just to find out you don't like that red dot. Try that out on a plate system, which is what I did with the M&P.

    I chose the RMR for these reasons after trying out the Burris FF3 and Vortex offerings. First, durability. The RMR is unquestionably the durability king, both in terms of round count and physical abuse. All other red dots are below the RMR as a direct result of the shape of the RMR housing. In terms of electronics, the Deltapoint, the Holosun HS507c, and the SRO have all held up very well and are a solid second through fourth place tie of sorts. All other brands die much faster with much less abuse (source: Cowan white paper and videos). Second, compatibility. Because the RMR is so popular, I think its footprint will be replicated. The SRO and Holosun already use the RMR footprint, and I and betting more sights will follow. This gives you and advantage in trying cheaper sights on a milled gun (i.e. Holosun, which is the only cheaper sight that has great results).

    Some additional thoughts on red dots and milling/plate systems. The best plate systems are the FN 509 tactical and the CZ P-10 optic ready. That is because those brands use methods to take the recoil stresses off the optic and screws. FN does this with their fancy mini plate and direct slide attachment, CZ does this with a cross pattern. That is a much more durable set up than the Glock and M&P plate systems. On dots, go with a smaller MOA. Once you get used to a bigger dot, you'll realize you lose precision at range and don't gain anything over a smaller dot because you can bump up the brightness of the smaller dot to make it bloom and be easier to pick up. In short, the smaller dot does everything the bigger dot can just as well, and the bigger dot can't do what the smaller dot can. Window size is also very important, and is the RMR's weakness. The bigger the window the easier it is to track the red dot during recoil, which is extremely helpful. At this point though the big window options (Deltapoint and SRO) have some of their own issues. But that merits another post.

    TLDR: read/watch Sage Dynamics, use a plate system if you aren't sure what dot you want, mill if you are 100% sure what dot you want. Red dots are the bomb.
     
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    Nov 7, 2011
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    I picked up the Canak 9mm with red dot.
    Quick out of the holster.
    It is hard to find the dot.
    Iron sights you have a front and rear to quick locate.
    RDS you have no quick reference.
    You need to break an old habit and create a new one.
    Also brightness plays a big factor.
    At first I had my dot bright to find easy.
    Then I notice I could not see the target as quick.
    I just seen a big red dot.
    Now it is YING/YANG.
    It is different and you just have to practice, practice, and practice.
     

    ACC

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    As you will see from my pictures below, I am SOLD on the MRDS on pistols. I agree with LAV that this will become the new norm. Already is to some degree with so many companies offering optics cuts/plates/mounts on their OEM pistols.

    I have tried a few different RDS and MRDS sights on pistols over the years and I have landed on two that I like the most (with one caveat).

    For me, on any compact or duty sized pistol, a Trijicon RMR is the way to go. Proven. Rugged. There might be better field of views on other MRDS, but I feel confident in the RMR. (P320 was an RX version that came with the Romeo 1 - which is another good option like Delta Point Pro)

    For single stack pistols (or pistols with slim slides), I like the Shield RMSc. Clear dot. Aluminum housing. Easy battery swap. HOWEVER! The polymer lens on them SUCKS. Scratches when you clean it with anything but a Q-tip. Mine are all scratched up but they continue to work for now. Note that Shield is going to be releasing a glass lens version of the RMS and RMSc sometime in October and you will be able to send your older models back to them for a glass lens swap.

    uBzF8RB.jpg


    yNajQ2H.jpg
     

    Doublehelix

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    I have been shooting USPSA competition matches this year with a RDS for the first time. Although it is getting easier, had a tough time originally finding the dot from a draw and after a big transition.

    I am shooting a P320 X5, and have the SIG Romeo 1 (6 MOA) installed, and I do like it, but I have very little else to compare it to. Trijicon has a great rep, especially for duty carry with their RMR. Their brand new SRO looks very intriguing with the large glass, but it is definitely NOT ruggedized, and would not trust it for duty carry. Looks amazing for competition types of applications.

    I have been considering taking a serious look at the Deltapoint Pro, but then again, SIG is supposedly releasing the new Romeo 3MAX soon, and that also looks interesting. I am good for now with the Romeo 1 until I see what that new Romeo 3MAX is going to look like.

    I have a Vortex Venom 3MOA on one of my .22LR pistols (S&W Victory) that works well, but I have not used it for anything other than plinking and SCSA practicing.
     

    obijohn

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    We've been playing with RDS sights on pistols since the days of the doctor sight and the plastic offerings. At the time, we found the concept valid but the technology not strong enough for league play. That has changed considerably in recent years. Though some of the other offerings are getting better, the RMR in whatever flavor is our choice for duty/carry.
    For those of you finding the dot hard to find on the draw or transitions, it's just a matter of adapting your index for the slightly higher sight plane.
    Smile Doc, hit me up off line and I'll be happy to discuss our research with you.
     

    Sheepdog103

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    My Vortex has stood up to a ton of use without losing Zero and been fantastic... as far as usage is concerned, to my knowledge it's a good as it gets in budget vs. quality. So far, I'd stick with it and no regrets...
     
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