Out of State handgun Transfer...

[Indy_Guy_77]

Different twist on things:

Say two Indiana residents meet up outside of Indiana...

Would a face-to-face transfer still be legal?

Even if face-to-face transfers are illegal in that particular state - but wouldn't that just cover residents of that state?

Note - there's about a 0.1% chance this will happen:

But my wife's aunt + firearms will be up in N. Illinois in a few weeks. We'll also be there - and I'll probably take a few firearms. What if we decide to swap something around?

-J-

 

[PapaScout]

No lawyer here but my understanding is that it depends on the residence state of the people involved.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

No lawyer here but my understanding is that it depends on the residence state of the people involved.

That's what I would think, too...

That's the MAIN thing.

Another scenario:

Say you're at a hunting lodge/vacation in BFE Montana. A lodge-mate happens to be a fellow Hoosier. Can you trade then/there?

The IL situation in my OP may be a sticky wicket due to the face-to-face T-fer being illegal without an FFL involvement (I think - I'm honestly not sure)

Just some musings I've had.

-J-

 

[PapaScout]

Geesh. This should be simple. What a world we live in.

 

[Degtyaryov]

I would think such transactions would be legal, so long as the state you were in didn't have additional restrictions on private transfers.

 

[PapaScout]

Here's a fun link :

http://www.isp.state.il.us/docs/ptfire.pdf

Section(720 ILCS 5/24-3) describes unlawful sales.

(720 ILCS 5/24-3)

Sec. 24-3. Unlawful Sale of Firearms.


A person commits the offense of unlawful sale of firearms when he knowingly:

(a) Sells or gives any firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person to any person under 18 years

of age; or

(b) Sells or gives any firearm to a person under 21 years of age who has been convicted of a misdemeanor other

than a traffic offense or adjudged delinquent; or

(c) Sells or gives any firearm to any narcotic addict; or

(d) Sells or gives any firearm to any person who has been convicted of a felony under the laws of this or any

other jurisdiction; or

(e) Sells or gives any firearm to any person who has been a patient in a mental hospital within the past 5 years;

or

(f) Sells or gives any firearms to any person who is mentally retarded; or


(g) Delivers any firearm of a size which may be concealed upon the person, incidental to a sale, without withholding

delivery of such firearm for at least 72 hours after application for its purchase has been made, or delivers

any rifle, shotgun or other long gun, incidental to a sale, without withholding delivery of such rifle, shotgun or

other long gun for at least 24 hours after application for its purchase has been made. However, this paragraph

shall not apply to:

(1) the sale of a firearm to a law enforcement officer or a person who desires to purchase a firearm for use

in promoting the public interest incident to his employment as a bank guard, armed truck guard, or other

similar employment; or

(2) a mail order sale of a firearm to a nonresident of Illinois under which the firearm is mailed to a point

outside the boundaries of Illinois; or

(3) the sale of a firearm to a nonresident of Illinois while at a firearm showing or display recognized by the

Illinois Department of State Police; or

(4) the sale of a firearm to a dealer licensed under the Federal Firearms Act of the United States; or

(h) While holding any license under the Federal “Gun Control Act of 1968", as amended, as a dealer, importer,

manufacturer or pawnbroker; manufactures, sells or delivers to any unlicensed person a handgun having a

barrel, slide, frame or receiver which is a die casting of zinc alloy or any other nonhomogeneous metal which

will melt or deform at a temperature of less than 800 degrees Fahrenheit. For purposes of this paragraph,

(1) “firearm” is defined as in “An Act relating to the acquisition, possession and transfer of firearms and

firearm ammunition, to provide a penalty for the violation thereof and to make an appropriation in connection

therewith”, approved August 3, 1967, as amended;

(2) “handgun” is defined as a firearm designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand, and includes

a combination of parts from which a firearm can be assembled; or

(i) Sells or gives a firearm of any size to any person under 18 years of age who does not possess a valid Firearm

Owner’s Identification Card.

(j) Paragraph (h) of this Section shall not include firearms sold within 6 months after enactment of this amendatory

Act of 1973, nor shall any firearm legally owned or possessed by any citizen or purchased by any citizen

within 6 months after the enactment of this amendatory Act of 1973 be subject to confiscation or seizure

under the provisions of this amendatory Act of 1973. Nothing in this amendatory Act of 1973 shall be construed

to prohibit the gift or trade of any firearm if that firearm was legally held or acquired within 6 months

after the enactment of this amendatory Act of 1973.

(k) Sentence. Any person convicted of unlawful sale of firearms in violation of paragraphs (b) through (h) commits

a Class 4 felony. Any person convicted of unlawful sale of firearms in violation of paragraph (a) or (i)

commits a Class 3 felony. Any person convicted of unlawful sale of firearms in violation of paragraph (a) or (i)

in any school, regardless of the time of day or the time of year, in residential property owned, operated, and

managed by a public housing agency, in a public park, in a courthouse, on the real property comprising any

school, regardless of the time of day or the time of year, on residential property owned, operated, and managed

by a public housing agency, on the real property comprising any public park, on the real property

comprising any courthouse, in any conveyance owned, leased, or contracted by a school to transport students

to or from school or a school related activity, or on any public way within 1,000 feet of the real property

comprising any school, public park, courthouse, or residential property owned, operated, and managed by a

public housing agency commits a Class 2 felony. (Source: P.A. 88-680, eff. 1-1-95.)

 

[ATM]

Different twist on things:

Say two Indiana residents meet up outside of Indiana...

Would a face-to-face transfer still be legal?

No. The receiver must receive the transferred firearm in their home state from the same-state resident with very narrow exceptions.

Even if face-to-face transfers are illegal in that particular state - but wouldn't that just cover residents of that state?

No. You are generally subject to the laws of the state you are in while you are there regardless of residency. Very few laws are crafted for residents only, and there's still the issue of this being a federal prohibition.

...What if we decide to swap something around?

As long as it's just a loan until such time as you return to your home state, where the transfer must lawfully happen, you could technically use each others' firearms in the other state unless that state law further prohibited such "temporary transfers". That one is just my opinion, not advice.


Refer to 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3) from the ATF FAQ.

18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts

...Say you're at a hunting lodge/vacation in BFE Montana. A lodge-mate happens to be a fellow Hoosier. Can you trade then/there?

Still no.

 

[JettaKnight]

Different twist on things:

Say two Indiana residents meet up outside of Indiana...

Would a face-to-face transfer still be legal?

Even if face-to-face transfers are illegal in that particular state - but wouldn't that just cover residents of that state?

Note - there's about a 0.1% chance this will happen:

But my wife's aunt + firearms will be up in N. Illinois in a few weeks. We'll also be there - and I'll probably take a few firearms. What if we decide to swap something around?

-J-

I believe it to be illegal since your crossing state lines (hence interstate commerce laws should apply). Plus, the laws of the state in which the sale occurs still apply.

 

[rvb]

From the ATF FAQ:
(http://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons)

Q: To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?
A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, ...

It doesn't say you have to be IN the same state, just residents of the same state. However, that is followed by the following question:

Q: From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?
A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State,

So according to the ATF FAQ it's legal to sell to another IN resident in BFE Montana, but not for the other IN resident to buy?

Goofy.

Soo..... we look at 18 U.S.C. § 922 :

(a) It shall be unlawful -
....
(3) for any person, other than a licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport
into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it
maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise
obtained by such person outside that State, except that this
paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires
a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other
than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or
receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to
purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not
apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in
conformity with subsection (b)(3) of this section, and (C) shall
not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any
State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

I believe this shows it is NOT legal to do a sale to a resident of the same state and have the transaction take place in another state. What a goofy world we live in. How did this S**t get to be law???

-rvb

 

[CathyInBlue]

Where is the law that allows an IN resident to buy a handgun from an FFL in IL?

Where is the law that allows an IN resident to buy a long gun from an FFL in IL?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

What is legal under federal law may not be legal under state law.

Two railroad tracks.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Railroad tracks... Needle tracks... Jehovah's Witness tracts...

Like I said above: Just musings.

Half a transaction would be federally legal, but completing it would not be. *sigh*

She can just keep her Kahr K9 Black and her Sig 239 and her S&W 3913 LS! (And her LNIB OD G19 and LCR .38)

 

[Tnichols00]

Why dont you guys just meet up in the other state and borrow each others guns to test them, then after you get back home and have test fired the guns and decide you are pleased with the other gun at that point call them and tell them you want to trade and to keep your old gun. LEGAL SMEGAL

 

[remauto1187]

Doesnt this ALL fall under the firearms version of DONT ASK, DONT TELL?

 

[ATM]

Where is the law that allows an IN resident to buy a handgun from an FFL in IL?

Prohibited. Must involve an Indiana FFL in transfer.

Where is the law that allows an IN resident to buy a long gun from an FFL in IL?

18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3) provides FFL exception for long guns.

 

[rvb]

Where is the law that allows an IN resident to buy a handgun from an FFL in IL?

Where is the law that allows an IN resident to buy a long gun from an FFL in IL?

Federally, handgun from IL FFL is illegal and long gun from FFL IL is legal. Law is the same USC I quoted above.


18 U.S.C. § 922 : US Code - Section 922: Unlawful acts
18 USC section 922(b)(3)

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
...
(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has
reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person
is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a
place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of
business is located, except that this paragraph
(A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a
resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's
place of business is located if the transferee meets in person
with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale,
delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of
sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer
or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph,
in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual
knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both
States), and
(B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting
purposes;

 

[rvb]

I always think of this quote when these "is it legal to...?" topics come up (especially when the answer isn't easy or obvious)...

The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws.​

-- Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged.​

Buying/Selling a gun legally shouldn't have to be confusing.

-rvb

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Why dont you guys just meet up in the other state and borrow each others guns to test them, then after you get back home and have test fired the guns and decide you are pleased with the other gun at that point call them and tell them you want to trade and to keep your old gun. LEGAL SMEGAL

Doesnt this ALL fall under the firearms version of DONT ASK, DONT TELL?

Well aware of the legal work-arounds AND the DADT versions.

This is, honestly, merely hashing out some random thoughts I've had.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Prohibited. Must involve an Indiana FFL in transfer.



18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3) provides FFL exception for long guns.

As did SEA 94 (2011).
Indiana General Assembly

Prior to that law's passage, an IN resident could purchase a long gun at retail only in a neighboring state, IL, MI, OH, or KY, as the federal law toiu =t eeds ti iok our law allowing such purchases only in those states specifically allowed. Changing state law changed the federal interpretation, or at least changed what was there to interpret.

As ATM noted, however, handguns are still unlawful to purchase (and take delivery of) outside your state of residence. You can find the gun you want and have it shipped to a FFL dealer in your home state, however.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[AJBB87]

Doesnt this ALL fall under the firearms version of DONT ASK, DONT TELL?

Ask what?

huh?

Do what now?