Lake Lemon/City of Bloomington letter

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  • CathyInBlue

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    I've been looking at some more real estate opportunities across southern Indiana and found a lovely place in Brown County near Lake Lemon. Researching information on Lake Lemon, I found this:

    http://www.lakelemon.org/rules-ordinances/

    I searched INGO and the closest thread by title I could find was this:

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...efense/144695-carry_in_bloomington_parks.html

    This spurred me to write the following letter to the e-mail addy in the contacts on the LLCD web page:

    Subject: Firearms on Lake Lemon Conservancy District property
    To: LLCDoffice@aol.org

    It has come to my attention via

    http://www.lakelemon.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/lakelemonordinances.pdf

    via publicly accessible web page

    Rules & Ordinances *|* Lake Lemon Conservancy District

    that LLCD rules and regulations vis-a-vis firearm possession may be in violation of state law.

    11.04.050 Use of firearms.

    No person shall carry, fire or discharge any firearm of any description within the limits of the
    lake except law enforcement officers in the performance of their duties, except, however, that
    duly licensed hunters, licensed by the state and by the federal government may hunt waterfowl
    during the time of each year as designated for such hunting season. Recreational fishing, hunting
    and trapping is permitted except in those areas near the spillway where watercraft are prohibited
    as marked by regulatory buoys. No person shall enter upon the waters of the lake for such
    purpose, or shoot over the waters of the lake unless he is the holder of a valid boat license of the
    city or the LLCD. (Prior code § 29-11).

    The inclusion of the word "carry" would seem to run afoul of IC 35-47-11.1-2(2).

    IC 35-47-11.1-2
    Political subdivision regulation of firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories prohibited

    Sec. 2. Except as provided in section 4 of this chapter, a political subdivision may not regulate:
    (1) firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories;
    (2) the ownership, possession, carrying, transportation, registration, transfer, and storage of firearms, ammunition, and firearm accessories; and
    (3) commerce in and taxation of firearms, firearm ammunition, and firearm accessories.

    As added by P.L.152-2011, SEC.4.


    Any attempts themselves to enforce 11.04.050 would run afoul of IC 35-47-11.1-3


    IC 35-47-11.1-3
    Voidance of political subdivision ordinances, measures, enactments, rules, policies, and exercises of proprietary authority
    Sec. 3. Any provision of an ordinance, measure, enactment, rule, or policy or exercise of proprietary authority of a political subdivision or of an employee or agent of a political subdivision acting in an official capacity:
    (1) enacted or undertaken before, on, or after June 30, 2011; and
    (2) that pertains to or affects the matters listed in section 2 of this chapter;is void.
    As added by P.L.152-2011, SEC.4.


    And thereby open up LLCD and the City of Bloomington to civil damages under IC 35-47-11.1-5 and -11.1-7.

    I do note that the content of lakelemonordinances.pdf is dated 2006, May, 17, and that the URL thereto would seem to be dated 2010, August, while IC 35-47-11.1 passed into effect 2011, July, 1. It may be that these regulations have long since been rectified with state law, and the publicly available record has simply not been updated. If this is the case, I simply implore you to make such updates as needed.

    If these necessary changes have not been made, the ordinances as written stand, and/or LLCD personnel are intent on enforcing these ordinances as written, then I implore you to make such changes as are necessary to come into compliance with state law.

    I'll report back here any response I get.
     

    Sean

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    "WHEREAS, the City of Bloomington Utilities Department owns the property known as Lake Lemon and various parcels in its vicinity (the “Premises”); and,"

    Straight from the ordinance PDF on their site.
     

    Destro

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    I've been looking at some more real estate opportunities across southern Indiana and found a lovely place in Brown County near Lake Lemon. Researching information on Lake Lemon, I found this:

    Rules & Ordinances  |  Lake Lemon Conservancy District

    I searched INGO and the closest thread by title I could find was this:

    https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...efense/144695-carry_in_bloomington_parks.html

    This spurred me to write the following letter to the e-mail addy in the contacts on the LLCD web page:



    I'll report back here any response I get.


    it was enacted in 2006, prior to preemption. It is not "afoul", simply invalid. Hopefully the good folks over there see your trolling for what it is and utilize the "delete" button.
     

    IndyBeerman

    Was a real life Beerman.....
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    The problem is while Bloomington may own Lake Lemon, they lease it to Lake Lemon Conservancy District.

    LLCD may enact it's own rules in the same fashion Lucas Oil Stadium, County 4H Fairgrounds and other property that are city/township/county owned and are leased to an entity that is not managed by local government.

    I fear this will become an end around game changer, imagine city/county owned parks being leased to outside organizations for the sole purposed to prohibit firearms.
     

    92ThoStro

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    The problem is while Bloomington may own Lake Lemon, they lease it to Lake Lemon Conservancy District.

    LLCD may enact it's own rules in the same fashion Lucas Oil Stadium, County 4H Fairgrounds and other property that are city/township/county owned and are leased to an entity that is not managed by local government.

    I fear this will become an end around game changer, imagine city/county owned parks being leased to outside organizations for the sole purposed to prohibit firearms.

    (10) For an event occurring on property leased from a political
    subdivision or municipal corporation by the promoter or
    organizer of the event:
    (A) the establishment, by the promoter or organizer, at the
    promoter's or organizer's own discretion, of rules of conduct
    or admission upon which attendance at or participation in the
    event is conditioned; or
    (B) the implementation or enforcement of the rules of
    conduct or admission described in clause (A) by a political
    subdivision or municipal corporation in connection with the
    event.

    The two examples you listed follow under this exception to the preemption law. However, it doesn't say in the preemption law as far as I could see, an exception for permanent things like leasing a city park, or lake. I think Destro hit the nail on he head. Didn't the courts rule that cities don't have to remove signage and fix ordinances as long as they aren't enforced? I remember reading about this in the Evansville Zoo thread. The OP might get them to fix it, but they probably wont. And it doesn't open them up to any civil penalties as long as it isn't enforced.
     

    buckstopshere

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    it was enacted in 2006, prior to preemption. It is not "afoul", simply invalid. Hopefully the good folks over there see your trolling for what it is and utilize the "delete" button.

    I, being "good folk" here on INGO, recognizing your trolling for what it is and will take the appropriate steps to remove your comments from interfering with my INGO reading.
     

    IndyBeerman

    Was a real life Beerman.....
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    The two examples you listed follow under this exception to the preemption law. However, it doesn't say in the preemption law as far as I could see, an exception for permanent things like leasing a city park, or lake. I think Destro hit the nail on he head. Didn't the courts rule that cities don't have to remove signage and fix ordinances as long as they aren't enforced? I remember reading about this in the Evansville Zoo thread. The OP might get them to fix it, but they probably wont. And it doesn't open them up to any civil penalties as long as it isn't enforced.

    You're getting Evansville's Zoo problem with Tactical Frost, confused with the lawsuit against the City of Hammond who refuses to remove the ordinance.

    And there is no wordage that prevents a city or town from doing this.

    While it may be owned by a government entity, the land and lake are leased, it's a complete game changer not subject to preemption laws.

    Destro is wrong, it is valid because the land is leased to a outside entity that is not government controlled.

    Straight from the LLCD website.
    The LLCD is a very active organization, including seven elected volunteer directors comprised of Lake Lemon landowners.
    They lease the land and lake and may set the rules as they see fit.
     

    CathyInBlue

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    You're all forgetting the simple fact that 11.04.050 as it stands is a component of a city government set of laws. As such, they can't prohibit carrying in such a fashion. The LLCD, as a government-endowed institution, it limited to what the government which endowed it has the power to do. Person A cannot give Person B permission to do something which Person A, himself, did not have authority to do. The exceptions under IC 35-47-11.1-4 speak explicitly of events, not persistent management. As such, there is no exception to the local firearm preemption law to be found in the sophistry of claiming the LLCD is not a political subdivision of the state.

    In fact, let's cut right to the heart of that argument.

    IC 35-47-11.1-1
    Application
    Sec. 1. This chapter applies to a political subdivision (as defined in IC 3-5-2-38).
    As added by P.L.152-2011, SEC.4.

    IC 3-5-2-38
    "Political subdivision"
    Sec. 38. "Political subdivision" means a county, city, town, township, school corporation, public library, local housing authority, fire protection district, public transportation corporation, local building authority, local hospital authority or corporation, local airport authority, special service district, special taxing district, or other type of local governmental corporate entity.
    As added by P.L.5-1986, SEC.1.
    Sounds pretty direct in cutting the legs out from under the argument that 11.1 doesn't apply to the Lake Lemon Conservancy District to me.
     

    Fred78

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    Is this a man made lake or natural ? I thought all natural lakes were owned by the state.
     

    IndyBeerman

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    CIB, I'm going to try this again.

    Knox County 4H Fairgrounds, owned by Knox County.
    Leased by Knox County 4H board

    Lucasi Oil Stadium owned by the Capital Improvements Board & Indianapolis
    Lease by the Indianapolis Colts

    Victory Field, owned by the CIB & City of Indianapolis
    Leased by Indianpolis Indians

    Bankers Life Fieldhouse, owned by the CIB & City of Indiapolis
    Leased by the Indiana Pacers.

    Lake Lemon, Owned by the City of Bloomington
    Leased by Lake Lemon Conservancy District.

    Do you know what they all have in common?

    They are City/County owned property that is leased out, and the lessee gets to set their own set of rules that are not restricted by any preemption status because the lessee is either a privately owned business, or a non government entity (board of homeowners in the LLCD case) and may do so as they wish.

    If the LLCD was governed by the City of Bloomington, then this would be a entirely different circumstance.
     

    dak109

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    CIB, I'm going to try this again.

    Knox County 4H Fairgrounds, owned by Knox County.
    Leased by Knox County 4H board

    Lucasi Oil Stadium owned by the Capital Improvements Board & Indianapolis
    Lease by the Indianapolis Colts

    Victory Field, owned by the CIB & City of Indianapolis
    Leased by Indianpolis Indians

    Bankers Life Fieldhouse, owned by the CIB & City of Indiapolis
    Leased by the Indiana Pacers.

    Lake Lemon, Owned by the City of Bloomington
    Leased by Lake Lemon Conservancy District.

    Do you know what they all have in common?

    They are City/County owned property that is leased out, and the lessee gets to set their own set of rules that are not restricted by any preemption status because the lessee is either a privately owned business, or a non government entity (board of homeowners in the LLCD case) and may do so as they wish.

    If the LLCD was governed by the City of Bloomington, then this would be a entirely different circumstance.

    All of the above except the LLCD are private enterprises. The LLCD being a political subdivision (maybe) should have to play by State law. I Tink that is the difference trying to be pointed out. While LLCD is not for profiting think they are still a political subdivision.
     

    Destro

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    Let me see if I can state this again in no uncertain terms… 11.04.050 is an entry in the Bloomington CITY CODE, not in any lease agreement or contract.

    lake lemon cd is controlled by the board of directors. Oversight of the cd is by the county court that approved the creation of the CD.


    Indiana code makes them sound more like a homeowners association
     

    IndyBeerman

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    I stand corrected after doing some extensive digging I came up with this from the City of Bloomington's "May 17, 2006 Common Council Regular Session Meeting Minutes"

    The have it in black and white stating that LLCD it is a political subdivision.

    May 17, 2006 Common Council Regular Session Meeting Minutes

    Ordinance 06-09 To Amend the Title 11 of the Bloomington Municipal Code Entitled "Lakes and Reservoirs"- Re: Extensive Revisions to Chapter 11.04 Entitled "Lake Lemon"
    It was moved and seconded that Ordinance 06-09 be introduced and read by title and synopsis. Clerk Moore read the legislation and synopsis giving the Committee Do-Pass Recommendation of 8-0-1. It was moved and seconded that Ordinance 06-09 be adopted.
    Vickie Renfrow, attorney in the Legal Department, noted that the ordinance included significant updating of the code. She said that Lake Lemon and parcels around the lake are owned by the City of Bloomington Utilities (CBU) Department and the lake is considered a back-up water source for the city. She said that 11 years ago the CBU entered into a 50 year lease with the Lake Lemon Conservancy District which had just been created. She said that it is a political subdivision with taxing authority by state statute.

    Cathy, feel free to contact Guy Relford to start do process because it affects your rights as a licensed gun owner.
     
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