IGA - HB 1095 "Plastic Coated Ammunition"

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  • brotherbill3

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    Aug 10, 2010
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    Hamilton Co.
    OK - I have some actual in sight I found into this and since it is on the agenda tomorrow (2/1/17) for 1st committee hearing:

    House Bill 1095:
    Introduced by state Representative Woody Burton (R-58), would reform the definition of “armor piercing ammunition” to mirror the federal law. By doing so, it would update the current Indiana law which erroneously prohibits plastic coated ammunition. Coating a bullet in plastic does not make it armor piercing, but it does reduce fouling and wear on a firearm and reduces lead fumes without the higher cost of copper plated bullets. This would simply allow target shooters in Indiana to take advantage of the same advances in polymer technology that many others around the country enjoy when shooting recreationally.


    https://iga.in.gov/legislative/2017/bills/house/1095#document-752712a6


    Or from another source:
    HB 1095: Harmonize Indiana’s Armor Piercing Ammunition Ban with Federal Law

    ▪ Ordinary lead bullets deform on impact, reducing effectiveness.
    ▪ Armor-piercing bullets have a penetrator core made of brass, beryllium copper, steel, or tungsten that retains shape on impact, allowing it to pierce hard surfaces.
    ▪ In the 1960’s, a line of bullets with a steel penetrator and hard brass jacket were sold to police departments. To reduce barrel friction, these bullets were Teflon coated.
    ▪ In 1982, a NBC television report claimed that these Teflon-coated bullets were a danger to police officers because they could penetrate ballistic vests.
    o They failed to understand that it was the high-density penetrator – not the Teflon coating – that made them effective.
    ▪ Indiana Code 35-47-5-11 was adopted in 1983 and defines “armor piercing” ammunition as any cartridge that “has a metal core and an outer coating of plastic.”
    o The statute focuses on the bullet’s outer coating and not the bullet core that actually determines its efficacy.
    ▪ Federal lawmakers properly focused on high-density penetrators when they passed the 1986 Law Enforcement Officer Protection Act, which banned “armor piercing” handgun ammunition composed of high-density materials like “tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium.”
    ▪ This error is problematic with the introduction of new target shooting ammunition with a soft lead core and outer polymer coating.
    ▪ The polymer coating reduces fouling, barrel wear, and vaporized lead when fired, while doing nothing to improve the bullet’s penetration power. It also provides a safety benefit by reducing fragmentation and splash-back at close range.
    ▪ The current Indiana statute does nothing to protect police and the public from actual armor-piercing ammunition, and prevents the sale of ammunition that benefits shooters and the environment with no additional risk to public safety.
    ▪ Indiana should therefore amend its statute by adopting the federal definition of “armor piercing” ammunition.




    There was early discussion about what is the point -
    The point is the IC has the basis wrong on what makes it AP ... (IC says the "coating"; really it is the hardened metal core)
    The federal code has this correct ... so This is just correcting the IC to mirror that.

    seems OK to me ... The only thing better would to be to repeal all of it ... but ... it is a baby step in the proper direction.
     

    Old Dog

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    Mar 4, 2016
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    Central Indiana
    I support the language clarification to the existing law; however, I question the need for our Indiana legislators to spend time to reiterate, in Indiana code, the federal prohibition. If it is illegal under federal law, then it is illegal. Why did Indiana have to pass any law on it originally? Did that make it more illegal, or did our legislators want to be able to spend Indiana $$ to prosecute and imprison potential violators? Some things just don't make sense to me.
     

    brotherbill3

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    I support the language clarification to the existing law; however, I question the need for our Indiana legislators to spend time to reiterate, in Indiana code, the federal prohibition. If it is illegal under federal law, then it is illegal. Why did Indiana have to pass any law on it originally? Did that make it more illegal, or did our legislators want to be able to spend Indiana $$ to prosecute and imprison potential violators? Some things just don't make sense to me.

    If the info I posted is correct - Indiana made the move (based on bad facts) in 1983 - 3 years before the Federal Govn't made their law in 1986 - and the IN code hasn't been updated since.

    ETA - I don't know what not just eliminate the State Law; perhaps only Feds could enforce then. I asked that while learning and getting facts from a legislator.
     

    oldpink

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    Apr 7, 2009
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    Anything that cleans up a stupid law regarding ammo is okay with me.
    It reminds me of the nonsense from people who actually believed that teflon-coated ammo was able to penetrate better strictly because of the coating instead of the tungsten or steel jacket (KTW brand ammo was the best known) with the teflon's purpose being to prevent damage to the rifling from the hard jacket.
     

    AmmoManAaron

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    Feb 20, 2015
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    I-get-around
    I'm doing a write up for HB 1095, it's a bad law and will hurt collectors and shooters. The Indiana law doesn't have a grandfather clause. The Fed law only applies to manufacture and import - possession and sale are OK. AP ammo that's already here is legal under Federal law but would be illegal under HB 1095. If they want to do something responsible, just repeal the existing Indiana law and leave it at that.

    There is still a fair bit of WWI and WWII German steel core 9mm ammo floating around in collecting circles since almost all German 9mm military ammo was steel core. It's nice to have period ammo for display with your Luger or P-38. This bill would hurt collectors.

    On the shooting side, there has been gobs of steel core surplus imported over the decades prior to the Fed ban. A lot of this still turns up and gunshows and estate sales, but most of the time the sellers at shows and bidders at auctions don't even know what they have becauase it's not labeled as AP on the original packaging. It was just "ball" ammo to the various military users since the steel core was primarily intended a cost saving measure (steel is cheaper and more easily sourced than lead). This law would turn a lot of unknowing collectors and shooters into criminals.

    Some common ammo that I see that would be illegal and create criminals out of unknowing citizens:
    Czech, Swedish, and Yugo 9mm steel core
    Russian, Chinese, Czech, and Yugo 7.62x25 steel core
    Chinese and East German 7.62x39 steel core

    Most surplus 7.62x25 is steel core, so just about anything imported prior to the Fed ban would be illegal under this new Indiana law. I'm doing a better and longer write-up opposing HB 1095, but this is the quick and dirty version.

    The above is just the more common stuff, I have far more examples of less common items in my ammo collection. Things like KTW cartridges and the like are now solely in the realm of collectors because of the manufacturing ban. A single pack of KTW often sells for $100 or more - gang bangers, car jackers, and such aren't buying or using this stuff because they don't know it exists and probably wouldn't care anyway. Books for collectors have been written on this subject, including rarity and values for the items.
     

    brotherbill3

    Master
    Rating - 0%
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    Aug 10, 2010
    2,041
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    Hamilton Co.
    I'm doing a write up for HB 1095, it's a bad law and will hurt collectors and shooters. The Indiana law doesn't have a grandfather clause. The Fed law only applies to manufacture and import - possession and sale are OK. AP ammo that's already here is legal under Federal law but would be illegal under HB 1095. If they want to do something responsible, just repeal the existing Indiana law and leave it at that.

    There is still a fair bit of WWI and WWII German steel core 9mm ammo floating around in collecting circles since almost all German 9mm military ammo was steel core. It's nice to have period ammo for display with your Luger or P-38. This bill would hurt collectors.

    On the shooting side, there has been gobs of steel core surplus imported over the decades prior to the Fed ban. A lot of this still turns up and gunshows and estate sales, but most of the time the sellers at shows and bidders at auctions don't even know what they have becauase it's not labeled as AP on the original packaging. It was just "ball" ammo to the various military users since the steel core was primarily intended a cost saving measure (steel is cheaper and more easily sourced than lead). This law would turn a lot of unknowing collectors and shooters into criminals.

    Some common ammo that I see that would be illegal and create criminals out of unknowing citizens:
    Czech, Swedish, and Yugo 9mm steel core
    Russian, Chinese, Czech, and Yugo 7.62x25 steel core
    Chinese and East German 7.62x39 steel core

    Most surplus 7.62x25 is steel core, so just about anything imported prior to the Fed ban would be illegal under this new Indiana law. I'm doing a better and longer write-up opposing HB 1095, but this is the quick and dirty version.

    The above is just the more common stuff, I have far more examples of less common items in my ammo collection. Things like KTW cartridges and the like are now solely in the realm of collectors because of the manufacturing ban. A single pack of KTW often sells for $100 or more - gang bangers, car jackers, and such aren't buying or using this stuff because they don't know it exists and probably wouldn't care anyway. Books for collectors have been written on this subject, including rarity and values for the items.

    Thanks - I sent a PM - not sure what when thru and not sure w/ inbox full - working on it; but I'm still mobile and on sketchy ISP services.
    ... gonna drop a SS fee to unlimit the box; along with some clean up - and I'll hit you up then - give me a few hours.

    This is quite a bit of info.
     
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