Homewoner's association and 2A preemption

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  • EyeCarry

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    So I live in the country just outside of Bloomington. My neighborhood is smallish but does have a homeowners association document. It is no where near as bad as ANY I have seen in B-town as it only concerns maintenance of our private road (upkeep, snow removal, and dues) At our yearly meeting, a few of the members brought up the amount of gunfire in our neighborhood. The discussion started leaning towards amending the bylaws to forbid the use of firearms (all the usual pleas were heard). I spoke up and said we would be wasting our money as you could not enforce it and would just be throwing money at the lawyers to amend the bylaws and then go to court about it only to lose.
    My question is Am I right about this? Keep in mind, we are in the country and everyone agreed that calling the sheriff would only get a visit to see if the activity/area was safe. Thoughts? Legal input?

    On a side note. It was a great chance to talk to my nearest neighbor about it (and my occasional target practice at home). I told him that I would check in with him as he has 4 children, the newest 19 days old. He appreciated my openness and though not a gun-owner, was ok and grateful that I talked with him.
     

    GIJEW

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    I wonder many--if any--of the shots they hear are actually in the neighborhood? Good PR with your neighbor!
     

    Ark

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    There's a lot of people in the 'burbs on the edge of Bloomington city limits who don't understand that the city limits are less than 100 yards thataway, and anyone past that lives in the county and is free to shoot on their own land.
     

    Cameramonkey

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    I think the important question is whether preemption covers HOAs. I know it covers city, town, county, and other municipal .govs. But HOAs are private entities. My gut says they are not bound by the preemption statute. (sadly)

    The test is how is Simon malls different than your HOA? Simon can enforce a private property rule without violating preemption. So I would assume the HOA, another private entity, could also get away with it.

    But it will be interesting for the legal eagles to chime in since IANAL, and only stayed in a Comfort Inn last night.
     

    Dead Duck

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    So you live in a rural country area large enough lots that people can shoot on their own property BUT somehow you still have an HOA????

    What am I missing?
    I've lived in cities and in the boonies but have never heard of an HOA neighborhood big enough to have actual land to shoot on.

    And yes, most all county lands in the states I've lived, if the Sheriff is called they just want to see if all the bullets do indeed land on your property. (depending if that deputy is an anti or not) I will warn you that even living in the sticks, some anti gunner can keep complaining and eventually make you stop just on he noise. When Kent and Kathy Lomont lived in Indiana, they had that problem and eventually moved way out to Idaho. (Of course he had big machine guns and a canon or two) :ar15:


    Still, I don't think any of this has to do with our carry laws and the preemption that's on the books.
     

    femurphy77

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    I had a similar situation many years ago, set up in my backyard was a pistol range. One day while using it a deputy drove up to "investigate a complaint". After we talked for several minutes he gave my arrangement the blessing and left. He said to tell the complainants to go pound sand as all was good with my arrangement. I had a neighbor at the time that had something full auto and would shoot it in a gully on his property and had the same interaction with the same deputy. Shortly after that the HOA tried to initiate a rule against it but their lawyer told them they couldn't afford the trouble it would bring them so it died.
     

    eldirector

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    HOAs are not local government entities. Not preempted by that particular state law. Most I have seen are for-profit (or non-profit) businesses. HOA rules are simply a contract between members. I am pretty sure we do not want the State (further) extended its controls over private organizations? They meddle enough.

    If you think your neighbor is doing something illegal or dangerous, well, that is what LE are for. If it isn't illegal or dangerous, why do you care?

    I see city-folks turned country-folk complaining on Nextdoor/facebook/whatever every week, about the fireworks, gunfire, or general "noise" out here on the edge of rural. They want "country living" on a 1/8 acre lot in a neighborhood, and don't realize that sound carries out here. No alarms, sirens, traffic, booming stereos, or gunfire from the city to drown it out.
     

    Brad69

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    HOA = Communist/Socialist

    The history of the HOA comes from a dude that was a devoted Socialist and compounds from that point. It’s usually a “entity” set up by the developer or builder often to attempt to control the area. It is a “board” that decides what goes on often regardless of what local laws state. The concept is in un American and restricts the personal freedom of the individual.
    HOA’s have banned firearms in some areas doing “inspections” of homes that included opening safes. The basic deal is you live on a commune your personal freedoms get checked when you step foot on the communes land “not your land”.

    I think the OP did the right thing the ones more equal than the others cannot enforce something that’s not in the bylaws so I say you did good!
     

    Disposable Heart

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    I think the important question is whether preemption covers HOAs. I know it covers city, town, county, and other municipal .govs. But HOAs are private entities. My gut says they are not bound by the preemption statute. (sadly)

    The test is how is Simon malls different than your HOA? Simon can enforce a private property rule without violating preemption. So I would assume the HOA, another private entity, could also get away with it.

    But it will be interesting for the legal eagles to chime in since IANAL, and only stayed in a Comfort Inn last night.

    Think you're onto it here.

    They can call the cops all they want but as long as you aren't breaking the law, the civil authorities can't really act as it's a breach of contract (HOA "rules") rather than breach of social contract (city, county, state, federal law).

    That being said, they can bring you to court over breach of contract and have it turn into a mess for you if they are so willing to do so. Of course, legal action is expensive and when many HOAs are barely paying enough to trim the grass in front of the sign out front or replace the "no soliciting" signs the kids kicked down last week, it's a juice vs. squeeze thing financially for them.

    Then again, they can make your life a living hell by constant complaints from neighbors, threatening legal action (even if they don't follow through, how would you know?), etc...

    Having been in an HOA once, I can say it was VERY mixed. Kept the riff raff out, but then every neighbor was a petty tyrant. I forgot to mow my grass one week and it was a HUGE discussion at the next meeting... Made me physically sick to hear that one neighbor that you gave a casserole to when their wife was just out of the hospital from pregnancy, demanding money from you as a fine "HOW CAN WE FINE HIM?!?!?!", like I had burned their house down or kicked a bucket of puppies into a volcano...

    I refuse to live in an HOA now and my wife wants to move to a few places that have them. Until I read the contract word for word (or even pay a lawyer to look it over), I'm not convinced. lol
     

    Phase2

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    Until I read the contract word for word (or even pay a lawyer to look it over), I'm not convinced. lol

    Unfortunately, that is really not sufficient. As the OP shows, HOA rules can be changed without your approval at any time.
    They really are for people for whom federal, state, county, and local simply aren't enough levels of government restricting their lives.
     

    JettaKnight

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    I love these threads...

    Folks come in saying how much they love freedom and being able to live how you want... and then proceed to tell us how we can't have an HOA if we want it. :n00b:


    To the OP: Bylaws don't govern what homeowners can/can't do. They govern the HOA itself (e.g. meetings, elections).

    Covenants and Restrictions govern the sort of thing you mention. And changing those is intentionally hard. Like getting notarized signatures hard. (Ask me how know)
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    Amend the bylaws? So, the HOA has a range? Or, are individuals shooting on Ag zoned property and fellow HOA members are complaining?

    I would tell them to lobby Congress to repeal the NFA that way everyone can use suppressors.:D
     

    Phase2

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    I love these threads...

    Folks come in saying how much they love freedom and being able to live how you want... and then proceed to tell us how we can't have an HOA if we want it. :n00b:

    Just reviewed the posts and not a single person stated that.
     

    Leadeye

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    Think you're onto it here.

    They can call the cops all they want but as long as you aren't breaking the law, the civil authorities can't really act as it's a breach of contract (HOA "rules") rather than breach of social contract (city, county, state, federal law).

    That being said, they can bring you to court over breach of contract and have it turn into a mess for you if they are so willing to do so. Of course, legal action is expensive and when many HOAs are barely paying enough to trim the grass in front of the sign out front or replace the "no soliciting" signs the kids kicked down last week, it's a juice vs. squeeze thing financially for them.

    Then again, they can make your life a living hell by constant complaints from neighbors, threatening legal action (even if they don't follow through, how would you know?), etc...

    Having been in an HOA once, I can say it was VERY mixed. Kept the riff raff out, but then every neighbor was a petty tyrant. I forgot to mow my grass one week and it was a HUGE discussion at the next meeting... Made me physically sick to hear that one neighbor that you gave a casserole to when their wife was just out of the hospital from pregnancy, demanding money from you as a fine "HOW CAN WE FINE HIM?!?!?!", like I had burned their house down or kicked a bucket of puppies into a volcano...

    I refuse to live in an HOA now and my wife wants to move to a few places that have them. Until I read the contract word for word (or even pay a lawyer to look it over), I'm not convinced. lol

    Having been through this, DH has the accurate response. The HOA is a civil contract that you sign when you move in, if you break the contract the HOA can pursue remedies at it's own expense in civil court but that's about it. I had a deputy show up on a shooting complaint but responded that this is the country, people shoot here on their own land.

    I'm sure there's some reason and flexibility with this, like late at night or situations where shots escape from a berm.
     

    Phase2

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    I'm sure there's some reason and flexibility with this, like late at night or situations where shots escape from a berm.

    That is because there is a different jurisdiction (city/county) to handle those problems. HOAs can't negate government laws. They can only add additional restrictions.
     

    edporch

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    Living where there's a HOA is just asking for trouble and nonsense.
    I would NEVER live where there's one.
    Basic zoning laws are enough for me.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    While I don't believe that a HOA would constitute a "political subdivision", even if it did there would be no preemption problems. The law specifically allows for regulating discharging a firearm, which is how cities/towns/counties get to do so.

    So you live in a rural country area large enough lots that people can shoot on their own property BUT somehow you still have an HOA????

    What am I missing?
    I've lived in cities and in the boonies but have never heard of an HOA neighborhood big enough to have actual land to shoot on.

    There is a member on here who has mentioned that their HOA's bylaws include a minimum lot size per residence of iirc 2 1/2 acres and that there are some lots in the 10+ acre range. They also include ones specifically allowing firearm discharging.
     

    JettaKnight

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    Just reviewed the posts and not a single person stated that.

    tenor.gif


    I would tell them to lobby Congress to repeal the NFA that way everyone can use suppressors.:D
    That sounds like the best response.
     

    HoughMade

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    Your HOA is not a governmental entity. The 2d Amendment is irrelevant as are state preemption statues.

    ...and if you think people will not spend too much of their own money to enforce the limits of freedoms on others....you don't know HOAs.

    Do your bylaws allow for such an amendment? If so, you'll have to be political and make sure it doesn't get passed....or move.
     
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