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  1. #1
    Plinker

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    A Serious Question -not sure where we go

    I'm really asking a serious question about where do we go from here? With the two mass shootings, at least 5 killed and 42 wounded in Chicago this weekend, and the fact that a kid my son played basketball with at Notre Dame last weekend was shot and killed last week -I'm for the first time really questioning what the do we do? Does anyone have a real answer as to how to address the gun violence?

    I've been a gun owner, hunter, sport pistol shooter in various forms for more than 40 years so I'm firmly on the 2nd amendment side. I've taught my two sons gun safety and they both have completed at least hunter safety. They've each shot at least one IDPA match. I write that to let you know I'm 100% pro-gun ownership and feel that teaching safety is key. My sons and I know we own whatever is sent downrange.

    My son (aged 19) and I shot sporting clays on Saturday early afternoon at Deer Creek in Three Oaks Michigan. There was an event going on so there say 50-60 people all armed at least with shotguns (some of us more than that I'm sure) and no one got hurt or shot. So there can be sensible gun ownership and use. Then we heard about the El Paso shooting. Then Sunday I get up to make coffee before church and get hit with the Dayton shooting. At this point I'm at a loss.

    I asked my 19 YO what he'd do. He's becoming a backer of no AR/AK's or anything like them. We went thru a list of issues from how would you confiscate, the slippery slope it starts, how do you get them all, how do you make sure the 'bad guys' give them up. etc. etc. It was a great conversation but no answer. Only more questions.

    I've almost resigned myself the new normal, while looking for an answer I can support. I do think constantly about my two sons at school, my wife at work and I try to stay vigilant while carrying. I've decided I'm not going to give into any fear. While I hope that it never happens I hope that I'd not go down without a fight if the worst happened.

    This forum has been a great place to share and learn over the years. So I'm asking serious question. How do we address these mass incidents without giving up all our freedoms? I don't want to allow the anti's to own this issue, and I think we as gun owners need to be vocal in an answer.

    Thanks for letting me vent.

  2. #2
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    Having kids of the same age, with some personal connections to both incidents over the weekend, I hear what you're saying, loud and clear.

    For one thing, timing is important. A variation of 'pick the battlefield.' In the immediate aftermath of incidents like this, we should genuinely and authentically support those affected and have thick skin about the emotional response against something we believe in.

    The right forum for polite, reasoned discussion is in the halls of legislatures around the country. Interpersonal responses should also be given time to process. Let the information come out so we don't meet empathetic impassioned responses to tragedy with callously emotional responses in defense.

    I'm a process guy, so I'm all about trying to learn from successes and failures. Always try to do better. I absolutely agree with those who say mental health, and even social issues, are the biggest weaknesses in our system. But, that presents tricky cases in terms of whether a single counseling session for depression would trigger a red-flag seizure of firearms forever, or other extreme examples. We also need to carefully guard everyone's private medical information from government intervention, along with 2A freedoms.

    I don't have many responses for this, either. Not right now at least.

    For as much as I also prefer to be proactive, I think it is necessary to wait for whatever is proposed and invite the discussion of that. Let's not be afraid of reasoned discussion. Generally, I think "our" side fares well with that.

    What is to be done? Let's talk about it and see what we agree about.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

  3. #3
    Grandmaster eldirector's Avatar

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    - address mental health in the US. Back in the 80's and 90's we closed most of our "institutions" and pushed folks back out into the world. Either with their families, who are ill-equipped to deal with the issues, or into the homeless and/or working poor population. The services available to those in need are poor at best, expensive, and exceptionally difficult to navigate. I am not sure how to "fix" this, but I see mental healthcare as a root issue.
    - Stop with the divisiveness. This is mostly on our so-called "leaders". All the race baiting, us vs. them attitudes. We need to force these folks OUT of power. Be active in your local primaries. Politely, but firmly, call out bull**** when you see it. Let's find some leadership that actually gives a **** about their JOB, and not about the POLITICS. Don't feed the machine.
    - I am normally anti-government involvement in social issues, but today the .gov is very, very involved, and seem to ENCOURAGE bad behavior. At the least, reign this in. Possibly find incentives to encourage strong nuclear families that live within their means. I am kinda of a "tough love" person. Making bad choices should be painful. Hunger is a great motivator. Promote opportunities, not handouts.
    - Be active, super active, in your child's life. Show them the RIGHT WAY.
    - Be active in your child's school. Don't let them get away with anything. Example: even our local public school has a bullying problem. They brush it all under a rug, rather than deal with it. Throw it right back on the "victim". And this is a so-called A+, 4-star school. A bunch of parents butted heads with the school admin, and ended up pulling their kids out. MORE parents need to do the same. Either force a change, or be the change. DO NOT ACCEPT bull****.
    - I know "if you see something, say something" sounds all big-brother and nosy, but seriously. There are often warning signs. PAY ATTENTION to the people around you.

    - Carry. Every day, every where.
    - Get some training. Self defense, first aid, etc...
    - Encourage others to do the same. Take them to the range. Buddy up for some training.

    - Be smart. Avoid crowds. Avoid sketchy areas of town. Don't associate with sketchy folks. Nothing good happens after midnight. Don't do drugs. Don't drink to excess. Don't act a fool. Have some self respect. Take pride in your work. Take time for your friends and family. Be involved in your community. Volunteer a little. Donate to a charity. Participate in your local government. Write your congressman and state rep. Be polite, but be vocal. Limit social media. Limit national "news". Limit TV in general.

    - Don't be afraid. Statistically, we are safer today then any time in history. Don't get caught up in the fear-mongering and hype.

    - No matter what government programs we have, what laws are passed, how compassionate we are, and how well we raise our kids... there will always be evil in this world. You do not get to choose when Evil visits, but you CAN choose your response. Be Prepared to take action.
    Ryan "ElDirector"


  4. #4
    Hop
    Hop is offline
    Master Hop's Avatar

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    Look at other countries around the globe and you will see that the rifle is the weapon that keeps people free from .gov oppression. It's not handguns nor shotguns.

    A .gov that can become tyrannical should NEVER be allowed to remove arms that prevent a free people from fighting back that same tyranny. That's the true meaning of the 2A. Not the sporting clays, not the hunting.

    Governments have a long and unwavering history of killing people that can't fight back.

    If a mall or large crowded event doesn't want armed people in attendance then it needs to provide ARMED active security & be responsible civilly for any injuries to legal law abiding citizenry. Let people defend themselves or you better make damn sure nothing happens on your watch.

    I'm 100% for getting rid of any barriers to CCW (or open carry) at any facility that accepts any form of public $.

    Revere's Riders Instructor - Scored both Master Rifle KD, Master Pistol

    NRA Pistol instructor | NRA Rifle instructor | NRA RSO
    Classes and info here: https://www.reveresriders.org/

  5. #5
    Grandmaster chipbennett's Avatar

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    Does anyone have a real answer as to how to address the gun violence?
    The first step is to recognize that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever unique about violence perpetrated with guns, much less, violence perpetrated with some arbitrary subset of guns.

    My son (aged 19) and I shot sporting clays on Saturday early afternoon at Deer Creek in Three Oaks Michigan. There was an event going on so there say 50-60 people all armed at least with shotguns (some of us more than that I'm sure) and no one got hurt or shot. So there can be sensible gun ownership and use.
    Right. You are describing the difference between the estimated 100 million, law-abiding gun owners, and deranged, evil, madmen (and other violent criminals). Given that homicides are committed by the latter, and not by the former, why would it ever be reasonable even to suggest that the former have somehow contributed to the latter, or that putting more restrictions on the former would somehow affect the latter?

    I asked my 19 YO what he'd do. He's becoming a backer of no AR/AK's or anything like them.
    Did you ask your 19 y/o if he is also in favor of no blunt instruments, given that they are used in more homicides each year than rifles of all types (including but not limited to scary black rifles)?

    Did you ask your son, if he is so worried about homicides committed using scary black rifles, why he doesn't express far greater concern for homicides committed using handguns, given that they are used to commit more homicide by an order of magnitude?

    This forum has been a great place to share and learn over the years. So I'm asking serious question. How do we address these mass incidents without giving up all our freedoms? I don't want to allow the anti's to own this issue, and I think we as gun owners need to be vocal in an answer.
    The answer has absolutely nothing to do with firearms, regardless of type, because firearms aren't the problem. We have a societal problem with unstable people loose among innocent society, because it is no longer socially acceptable to institutionalize people who show signs of acting out exactly as we see these mass shooters act. We have a societal problem with an endemic, fundamental loss of respect for the basic value and sanctity of human life. We have a societal problem of erosion of respect for and decency toward our fellow human beings, exacerbated by loss of personal interaction, in large part driven by social media and other internet outlets that have replaced real-life interaction. I could go on.

    Those are issues that I can't solve alone. Those are issues over which I have next to no influence to solve in general. All I can do is to solve them for me and my family, encourage others to do the same, and pray for the Second Coming to take place soon, because I don't believe that we as a society will ever solve these problems - much less as we continue to turn our backs on God.

  6. #6
    Marksman

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    The answer never has been rooted in strengthening firearm regulation thru additional "Supposed" common sense gun laws, the problem is proponents of that concept have been allowed to make it the mainstream suggested solution; while other avenues of reducing violence in our Country have taken a back seat to it.

    In spite of million of "nefarious looking" firearm never becoming a tool to crime, a portion of our populace has subscribed to the concept these "weapons of war' must never be allowed into the hand of someone intend upon what was witnessed this weekend. Regardless of their desire to regulate private firearm ownership to extinction; evil acts will still exist and means will be found to carry those acts out.

    I'd like to say greater emphasis by government should be placed on Mental Health treatment, yet at the same time fear politics will play no less a roll than everything else they touch and become halfazzed at best.

  7. #7
    Silencers Have NEVER Been Illegal !
    VUPDblue's Avatar

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    It is interesting to me that the uneducated out there will be vehemently against a certain type of firearm based only on its looks. It may look evil, to them, so therefore it HAS to go.

    However....

    These same folks are also vehemently against investigating PEOPLE based on looks alone because thatís not fair. Me stopping some sketchy looking dude who, through my training and experience, appears to be up to no good is a no-go.
    VUPDblue's Rule #1: Don't be a jerk.

    Marion County Fish and Game.Central Indiana's best shooting
    sports facility!



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  8. #8
    DCR
    DCR is offline
    Marksman

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    I read a letter to the editor of the WSJ a few years back right after one of these incidents. I believe the writer was a psychiatrist. In one sentence I believe he put his finger on it. To paraphrase -- We are not being taught to self-soothe.

  9. #9
    Grandmaster

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    Just heard this on the news. I don't know this gent, but he's catching hell on twitter for his tweet...







    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    @neiltyson

    In the past 48hrs, the USA horrifically lost 34 people to mass shootings. On average, across any 48hrs, we also loseÖ

    500 to Medical errors

    300 to the Flu

    250 to Suicide

    200 to Car Accidents

    40 to Homicide via Handgun

    Often our emotions respond more to spectacle than to data.



    -----------------------------------------------
    Done, done, and Iím on to the next one...
    -----------------------------------------------

  10. #10
    Grandmaster T.Lex's Avatar

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    He's actually caught some hell here on INGO in the past, too.

    At this point, I think he's just happy when people spell his peculiarly long name correctly.
    Resident Warning Shot Statist.

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