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  • jamil

    code ho
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 17, 2011
    60,141
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    Gtown-ish
    Well. If people had a crystal ball before the Dayton shooter bought his firearms I doubt most gun owners would object to blocking that purchase. The problem is, there’s no such thing as a crystal ball. This guy’s story seems obvious after we know enough facts afterwards. Would it have been so obvious before?

    If we could 1) define some criteria that was pretty positive the person was a danger, and 2) we could ensure that the process couldn’t be abused by activist zealots, and 3) there’s due process to follow, I wouldn’t have a problem with red flag laws. But. We’re not really past #1 yet.
     

    JettaKnight

    Я з Україною
    Site Supporter
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    6   0   0
    Oct 13, 2010
    26,517
    113
    Fort Wayne
    The one thing red flag laws do help with is suicide, which is a far bigger source of death than mass murder.

    The problem I see with them is the issue with ex parte decisions and the bad PR they have.
     

    indykid

    Grandmaster
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    4   0   0
    Jan 27, 2008
    11,859
    113
    Westfield
    The hardest part of preventing any of these "mass shootings" is that if you stop one, you don't know that you stopped one. I am sure there are many people who are alive today because a someone was stopped before violating the murder laws.

    And any laws on firearms is a violation of our rights. Again, as I have been saying for years, and politicians refuse to acknowledge it, making murder illegal hasn't stopped murders, so how will laws on honest people prevent them?

    I know, preaching to the choir.
     

    INPatriot

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Aug 21, 2013
    482
    63
    God's Country
    Red flag laws are a gun control solution to a mental health problem...

    The person gets red flagged and has their firearms confiscated but not their knives, blunt objects, vehicles, pressure cookers, accelerants and ability to make fire OR INTENT.
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
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    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
    25,979
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    NWI
    I only read part of it, but what I gathered is that the want to do is place scrutiny on US citizens that it is illegal to put on others that may commit terrorism.
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,612
    149
    Valparaiso
    The fact that it is impossible to stop all mass shootings (or shooting of any type) is not a good reason to refuse to take reasonable and constitutional steps in an effort to prevent some.

    Drafted correctly, I believe that "red flag" laws can be, in some measure, effective and constitutional.

    As to the protections for the citizens and constitutionality, my preferred method would involve the burden always being on the government to prove the reasonable likelihood of danger, and then a continuing danger or the "red flag" order is automatically lifted. After the initial ex-parte order (which there is no real way to get around), with notice and a hearing, the gvt. should have to prove, by clear and convincing evidence, a continuing imminent danger within 7 days, and then every 30 days thereafter, or the order automatically expires. If then, after the order is lifted, the subject can prove by a preponderance of the evidence that the order was improperly applied for or the gvt. sought to have it continued without good cause, the gvt. would be liable for attorney fees.

    There would be other parts to this, but this is the gist of the procedural safeguards I would endorse. It is also burdensome enough on the gvt. to, hopefully, not make it something frequently used without good reason.

    I very much believe that there should be a mechanism for removing guns when a person is found to be a legitimate threat. Will it prevent everything? Of course not. Will it prevent something? Possibly, and that's good enough for me. Do nothing seems not to be an option, politically or ethically.
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,612
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    Valparaiso
    Red flag laws are a gun control solution to a mental health problem...

    The person gets red flagged and has their firearms confiscated but not their knives, blunt objects, vehicles, pressure cookers, accelerants and ability to make fire OR INTENT.

    Can you name an instance where someone had their guns confiscated under a red flag law and then went on to commit murder through another means. Sure it's possible, but has it happened?

    And then, so what. Guns are a far more efficient means to kill people than any of those. Less death and killing made more difficult make sense.
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
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    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
    25,979
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    NWI
    OK, lets say that everything you said comes to be.

    Is it legitimate for the government to take your guns, toss expensive wood stocks into a 55 gallon drum, have some cop come in and grab whatever he likes and take it to the range and throw it back in the drum dirty?

    These are things that HAVE happened.

    I say there needs to be procedure to safeguard my property if I were in this situation.
     

    HoughMade

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Oct 24, 2012
    35,612
    149
    Valparaiso
    OK, lets say that everything you said comes to be.

    Is it legitimate for the government to take your guns, toss expensive wood stocks into a 55 gallon drum, have some cop come in and grab whatever he likes and take it to the range and throw it back in the drum dirty?

    These are things that HAVE happened.

    I say there needs to be procedure to safeguard my property if I were in this situation.

    It's a bailment. The gvt. (LE agency) is the bailee:

    The standard of care a bailee owes a bailor is measured by the amount of benefit each party derives from the bailment… The bailee must use:

    (1) slight care when the bailment is for the sole benefit of the bailor,

    (2) great care when the bailment is for the sole benefit of the bailee, or

    (3) ordinary care when the bailment is for the mutual benefit of the bailor and bailee.

    See, Northern Indiana Slurry Seal, Inc. v. K & K Truck Sales, Inc. (1975), 167 Ind.App. 440, 338 N.E.2d 704, 706; Indiana Ins. Co. v. Ivetich (1983), Ind.App., 445 N.E.2d 110, 112; 4 I.L.E. Bailment § 7 (1958).
    Norris Automotive Serv. v. Melton, 526 N.E.2d 1023, 1026 (Ind. App. 4th Dist. 1988)

    It would seem that this bailment is for the sole benefit of the bailee (gvt.), so great care. No reason this cannot be determined under the same cause number as the "red flag" order.
     

    2A_Tom

    Crotchety old member!
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    3   0   0
    Sep 27, 2010
    25,979
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    NWI
    We need to find out from the INGO that was red flagged how the Gubment took care of his arsenal.

    If that ever gets settled.
     

    jamil

    code ho
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jul 17, 2011
    60,141
    113
    Gtown-ish
    Red flag laws are a gun control solution to a mental health problem...

    The person gets red flagged and has their firearms confiscated but not their knives, blunt objects, vehicles, pressure cookers, accelerants and ability to make fire OR INTENT.

    There’s red flag laws in wide use now. Protective orders. That one gets abused often enough. It’s meant to help people have a remedy against abusive relationships. But many people file an epo against their spouse just to spite them. I work with a guy who went through a bitter divorce. She tried to get him fired. That didn’t work so she filed an epo on the guy, and then called his boss and told him about the epo. That almost worked. Hell hath no fury.
     

    Shadow01

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 8, 2011
    3,239
    119
    WCIn
    What other circumstances do we encourage citizens, with a law, to pre-crime report to authorities that results in more than an eyebrow raising from law enforcement?
     

    INPatriot

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Aug 21, 2013
    482
    63
    God's Country
    Can you name an instance where someone had their guns confiscated under a red flag law and then went on to commit murder through another means. Sure it's possible, but has it happened?

    And then, so what. Guns are a far more efficient means to kill people than any of those. Less death and killing made more difficult make sense.

    I cannot. But I'll also not bury my head in the sand that an individual hellbent on destruction will destroy no matter what they have in their hands, be it a fist, a firearm, a rock, a knife or thr wheel of a car.
     
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