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  • Leadeye

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    So a judge makes a mistake in issuing a restraining order and faces no accountability for they're mistake. Seems to me this fellow should have the option of at least suing the judge for this.
     

    MarkC

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    With very few exceptions judges are absolutely immune. Unfortunately, Kirk has had the opportunity to explore the long reach of this absolute immunity for judicial acts.

    The article does not give us much information about Florida's Red Flag law, and it is unclear what kind and quantity of behavior is sufficient to support imposing a Red Flag order.

    Instead, the horror story here is because whoever identified the subject of the order did a sloppy job, so the fault lies with law enforcement and whoever brought the action that led to the order.
     

    Ingomike

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    With very few exceptions judges are absolutely immune. Unfortunately, Kirk has had the opportunity to explore the long reach of this absolute immunity for judicial acts.

    The article does not give us much information about Florida's Red Flag law, and it is unclear what kind and quantity of behavior is sufficient to support imposing a Red Flag order.

    Instead, the horror story here is because whoever identified the subject of the order did a sloppy job, so the fault lies with law enforcement and whoever brought the action that led to the order.

    As I understand the article, law enforcement agreed the subject was not the one identified in the injunction but because bureaucracy started the paperwork, even to the wrong guy common sense cannot override the system...
     

    MarkC

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    As I understand the article, law enforcement agreed the subject was not the one identified in the injunction but because bureaucracy started the paperwork, even to the wrong guy common sense cannot override the system...

    That's unfortunately true; the court order is the court order, and it is going to take a subsequent order to correct the mis-identification.

    Also, if I were advising the officers in this case, I would have advised them to not execute the order against the misidentified person, and worked to notify the court that the wrong individual is identified in the order.

    Someone got sloppy identifying the subject of the order.

    Someone mindlessly decided they needed to enforce the order and take the wrong person's firearms.

    There is a lot of fail going on here, but there is not enough information in the article to know if the Florida Red Flag laws are too onerous or overbroad. Some people believe that any Red Flag law is wrong and/or unconstitutional, and, for them, this story is part of their evidence. These are the same kinds of law enforcement errors that get the wrong person identified in an arrest warrant, get the wrong house invaded in a search warrant, etc. They happen, but governmental systems are comprised of and operated by people, and mistakes will occur.

    It is up to those people in the system to be diligent and minimize the errors.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Just saw a blurb on the evening news (WTHR) about the "warning signs" that could warrant "see something, say something" (aka red flag)...

    1. Stockpiling ammunition or guns... (I don't think it was number 1, but it was what caught my attention).


    Uh oh... :):
     

    KellyinAvon

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    Read this report of what happened in Florida, how is Laird's Law different? Or is it?

    https://www.ammoland.com/2019/08/fl...en-away-over-mistaken-identity/#axzz5x9iKXQBc
    A couple things at work here, this is not along the lines of the Laird Law. Suspended Florida concealed carry license because of a domestic violence restraining order. The domestic violence aspect is because the landlord rented a room to the tenant and girlfriend. "Domestic" isn't limited to spouse, love interest, etc. so the owner of the property counted because of proximity (would be my guess.)

    The guy who had to go to half the county offices: has a very common name (three in fact) and bureaucrats did a less-than half-assed job.

    Now to further compound the levels of fail here, we have law enforcement officers who now know this isn't the individual subject to the restraining order, but still want to confiscate the individual's firearms. They are too stupid to be LEOs and should be fired immediately.
     

    churchmouse

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    Just saw a blurb on the evening news (WTHR) about the "warning signs" that could warrant "see something, say something" (aka red flag)...

    1. Stockpiling ammunition or guns... (I don't think it was number 1, but it was what caught my attention).


    Uh oh... :):

    Is there a difference between collecting/acquiring as to stockpiling. Choice of words are very very important when setting the soccer moms and she-men loose on the populace.
     

    MarkC

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    Is there a difference between collecting/acquiring as to stockpiling. Choice of words are very very important when setting the soccer moms and she-men loose on the populace.

    Unfortunately, to some of those people, the desire to own even one gun is sufficient evidence of mental illness.
     

    Ingomike

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    A couple things at work here, this is not along the lines of the Laird Law. Suspended Florida concealed carry license because of a domestic violence restraining order. The domestic violence aspect is because the landlord rented a room to the tenant and girlfriend. "Domestic" isn't limited to spouse, love interest, etc. so the owner of the property counted because of proximity (would be my guess.)

    The guy who had to go to half the county offices: has a very common name (three in fact) and bureaucrats did a less-than half-assed job.

    Now to further compound the levels of fail here, we have law enforcement officers who now know this isn't the individual subject to the restraining order, but still want to confiscate the individual's firearms. They are too stupid to be LEOs and should be fired immediately.

    So it would be different in Indiana? Or are we just as dependent on LEO's discretion?
     

    Cameramonkey

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    Is there a difference between collecting/acquiring as to stockpiling. Choice of words are very very important when setting the soccer moms and she-men loose on the populace.

    No. If you dont buy ammo just in time (one box to load in your defensive mags, and boxes at/on the way to the range) you are dangerous!

    Never mind if you asked these same folks about whether its weird to buy 96+ rolls of toilet paper to get the best price when you only need one roll every couple days would be lost on them.

    Unfortunately, to some of those people, the desire to own even one gun is sufficient evidence of mental illness.
    Troof.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Is there a difference between collecting/acquiring as to stockpiling. Choice of words are very very important when setting the soccer moms and she-men loose on the populace.

    Of course. We've all heard the news talking heads refer to a handgun and a rifle with 100 rounds of ammo as "an arsenal" when a bad guy gets busted for something. :rolleyes:
     

    Denny347

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    So it would be different in Indiana? Or are we just as dependent on LEO's discretion?
    Typically, respondents to Protective Orders (in Marion County at least) are ordered by the judge to turn in any "weapons" to the IMPD Property Room for the duration of the PO. I've NEVER removed a firearm from a residence just for a PO. I have done so when making a domestic battery arrest and the victim wanted them out of the house. If I serve a mental writ on a person and I find (plain view or with permission) firearms, I'll take them and the Judge will decide to give them back. Same with a person who I place under an immediate detention and I find firearms and they played a roll in the immediate detention in the first place.
     

    bwframe

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    Typically, respondents to Protective Orders (in Marion County at least) are ordered by the judge to turn in any "weapons" to the IMPD Property Room for the duration of the PO. I've NEVER removed a firearm from a residence just for a PO. I have done so when making a domestic battery arrest and the victim wanted them out of the house. If I serve a mental writ on a person and I find (plain view or with permission) firearms, I'll take them and the Judge will decide to give them back. Same with a person who I place under an immediate detention and I find firearms and they played a roll in the immediate detention in the first place.
    You sir do not concern me at all. Your reputation is exceptional.

    I am very concerned that your fellow officers make judgment calls on the scene, without due process.
     

    eldirector

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    I have wondered..... If firearms are seized due to the above, are other weapons also seized? Knives (that kill more folks than guns)? Baseball bats or other bludgeoning instruments (that kill more folks than guns)?

    As mentioned in another thread somewhere, all this gun-only nonsense makes this very obvious that safety is the least of our concerns. If we were trying to make a situation "safe", the person would be removed, not some subset of the tools.

    And this is not a poke at LE. Really am curious: if a gun is found and confiscated, and a knife is found in the same place.... is it confiscated?
     

    JettaKnight

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    I have wondered..... If firearms are seized due to the above, are other weapons also seized? Knives (that kill more folks than guns)? Baseball bats or other bludgeoning instruments (that kill more folks than guns)?

    As mentioned in another thread somewhere, all this gun-only nonsense makes this very obvious that safety is the least of our concerns. If we were trying to make a situation "safe", the person would be removed, not some subset of the tools.

    And this is not a poke at LE. Really am curious: if a gun is found and confiscated, and a knife is found in the same place.... is it confiscated?

    How many people kill themselves with a baseball bat?

    I do believe that the majority of Laird's Law invocations are related to suicide threats. And the tool of choice for a suicide would be a gun.


    And yes, a knife and bat can be used to kill, but be honest - a gun is far more efficient in most cases.
     

    d.kaufman

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    How many people kill themselves with a baseball bat?

    I do believe that the majority of Laird's Law invocations are related to suicide threats. And the tool of choice for a suicide would be a gun.


    And yes, a knife and bat can be used to kill, but be honest - a gun is far more efficient in most cases.

    Lairds law and the red flag laws being put in place have nothing to do with suicides however so i don't believe thats pertinent
     
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