Advice on building a range toy, confused about legalities.

[Kromagnon]

So I picked up a RRA stripped lower at a gun show years ago and its been gathering dust and scratches (it was blemished to begin with). I have been reading up on what I can legally build in Indiana but I am not 100% sure what is and isn't legal without extra permits.

Please correct me if I am mistaken but this is what I "think" is the situation.

Unless my lower was marked on the ATF form that it was specifically for a rifle, I can build a pistol with any size barrel and a pistol buffer or the sig brace with no extra paperwork. I can then at anytime put a rifle upper on it and switch back later if I choose. I cannot build a rifle and later put a pistol upper on it.

If I build a pistol and want to put a stock on it I need to apply for a SBR permit and then wait until it is approved before I can switch the stock.

I am not sure if I can find out from the ATF what my lower was registered as or not but I am assuming it was probably left blank or marked other?

I was planning on purchasing a complete upper for it and currently 16 inch complete uppers that interest me are all backordered like crazy but all the manufacturers/retailers I have looked at have plenty of pistol uppers in stock so I was thinking of buying a pistol upper now and later when the rifle upper I want is ready I could swap it out or just buy a new lower and make a second gun which will happen anyways probably.

Your feedback is much appreciated!

 

[MCgrease08]

My understanding is that stripped lowers are indeed marked as "other" when the original form is submitted.

And you seem to have everything else correct as well. I'm not an SBR guy, so take it with a grain of salt, but everything you laid out is correct to the best of my knowledge.

Once a rifle, always a rifle. You can go pistol, rifle, back to pistol. Adding a stock requires SBR paperwork and approval. Keep it as a pistol until approval is granted.

 

[tradertator]

You are correct. It was most likely sold as "other" when you purchased the lower but if you're going to loose sleep at night over it, I guess you could always take it to an FFL holder and fill out another 4473 as such. Honestly though, this stuff with "once a rifle / always a rifle" blah blah blah seems like it would be nearly impossible to enforce. That said, I wouldn't want to be the guy that they decided to pursue over it.
As far as building an SBR, you would need to fill out (2) Form 1's front and back, have the chief of your local law enforcement agency sign off on them (city police if your in the city, sheriff if your out of town), complete 2 FBI finger print cards, and affix a passport type photo to each form. Put everything in an envelope with a check for $200, send it to the ATF, and you'll receive an approved tax stamp in +/- 6 months. Once your stamp arrives, you can then proceed to building your SBR. A lot of guys will use a pistol style receiver extension while they are waiting for their stamp, and then install a stock once the stamp arrives. The process sounds really intimidating at first if you're not familiar with it, but it's not that bad once you've done it a time or two.
The other option is to speak with a lawyer and form an NFA trust. That way you can add whoever you would like to the trust, bipass the chief law enforcement signature, and file for your stamp online with the E-File system. This is the route I wish I had went.

 

[MCgrease08]

Setting Up an NFA Gun Trust - The Firearm Blog

I was curious about what is involved with setting up a trust, so I did a quick search.

 

[Kromagnon]

Thanks for the link! and Happy New Year!

 

[wsenefeld]

My understanding is that stripped lowers are indeed marked as "other" when the original form is submitted.

Thats how I've understood it should be but while getting a lower transfered at Profire, I was asked if I wanted the lower marked as "pistol." Brendan said they get a lot of requests for that so the guy building a pistol has one more thing backing him up if anybody would ever question if they illegally made an SBR.

 

[MCgrease08]

Thats how I've understood it should be but while getting a lower transfered at Profire, I was asked if I wanted the lower marked as "pistol." Brendan said they get a lot of requests for that so the guy building a pistol has one more thing backing him up if anybody would ever question if they illegally made an SBR.

That seems like it could make sense if you knew you were going the pistol route, but I think that could potentially cause more problems for the FFL unless they actually see the built pistol.

What I mean by that is, let's assume a guy goes into a shop and picks up a stripped lower and asks them to mark it as a pistol. Would that then give him some type of cover to build it as a rifle first, then later claim it started as part of a pistol build, even though it hadn't?

I don't know the answer, but it seems like murky waters the FFL would potentially want to avoid. In the rare event of an investigation that may put the FFL in the middle of an uncomfortable situation if they had to explain why it was marked a pistol if they hadn't seen it assembled that way.

Plus, an SBR would still require the NFA tax stamp correct? So whether it started as a pistol or rifle would be irrelevant. Starting it as a pistol just allows you to use it w/o a stock while waiting for BATFE approval on the stamp.

 

[wsenefeld]

I guess I was more thinking along the lines that if an LEO sees your AR pistol with a Sig brace, he may think it's an SBR and ask to see paperwork. You then tell him it's a pistol and explain the Sig brace and he's able to call the ATF and verify it was marked pistol?

 

[Stang51d]

ATF wouldn't be able to verify if it was a pistol or rifle without figuring out where it was sold, then going thru the books of that dealer to see how the 4473 was done. Iirc, the only info that is given to nics is your personal info and "rifle, pistol, or other". Serial numbers do not leave the form, so there is no FBI/ATF data base that has your name and a list of serial numbers of what you have bought.

My opinion is, if the ATF is going to go thru that much trouble to bust someone fore something like that, they are after you anyway, and if it's not that, it will be some other back door thing.

 

[Ljungman]

I had spoken to an ATF agent here in indy about a few questions i had over the ar pistol. He states the letter of the law is : make it a pistol- always a pistol, rifle a rifle. He, however, noted that iots impossible for the ATF or the FBI to determine what was a pistol or a rifle by looking at the firearm. If the lower was sold as a pistol or rifle, then you must follow the laws pertaining to that form. Cant change a rifle to a pistol or back once sold per him if sold on paper as one or the other. hence why my trusty local gun purveyor sell all lowers as "other". He did note that if you take a lower from an existing rifle i.e. factory rifle...it was sold as a rifle...dont make a pistol out of that lower. doing so violates the law. now...really....whose gonna check? get into trouble or use it for self defense in your home...and...voila - Murphy has visited you and you will suffer. If you want an AR pistol - build it from the ground up as one...and leave it. A pistol with a rifle barrel is ok...but you start asking for trouble in the technicalities. If you have more than one AR upper and you have more than one lower...leave the uppers on! by the law...(cough-garbage-cough) if you have a rifle butt stock on a lower and a pistol upper sitting free....you can get nailed for intent for making an SBR...but as i said...its all technicalities. Make a pistol and leave it together. Make a rifle...leave it together. avoid giving murphy and his law any reason to come looking at your firearms. we all know the ATF is not here to uphold the law or look after the citizens....