Muzzleloader experts, I need an education

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  • phylodog

    Grandmaster
    Mar 7, 2008
    18,750
    113
    Arcadia
    22 days hunting with no success this year has me considering options to further my range for next year. I've got several options but a muzzleloader allows for more hunting time than a shotgun or center fire rifle/handgun. The problem I have is two fold, I know nothing about muzzleloaders and I quickly lose interest in any long gun which is not accurate. I understand that 1" groups at 100 yards may not be realistic for a muzzleloader and is not necessary for hunting whitetail but I don't want to lose interest due to poor accuracy.

    So for someone who knows virtually nothing about them, what do I need to know? Accuracy, reliability and distance are my priorities so a traditional is probably not up for consideration. I'm more interested in the modern muzzleloader designs.

    How frequently do they need to be cleaned?
    Shot to shot consistency?
    What is a realistic accuracy expectation?
    Max distance?

    Thanks in advance for any insight.
     

    bocefus78

    Master
    Apr 9, 2014
    2,023
    63
    Hamilton Co.
    Your accuracy goal of 1moa is easily attained once you find the load your rifle likes. I literally centerpunch a 1 inch bull at 100yds every shot if I do my part.

    Cleaning needs to be done asap after shooting. Same day asap. Wait until the next day, and it's twice as hard to clean.
    I prefer stainless for this reason in muzzleloaders.

    Range. 250 to 300 on 150gr charge. I can't comment on this from experience as I don't have access to a range or woods that allow that kind of shot.

    I use a tc omega with thumbhole. I love it. It's older and has breech plug threads which is the hardest part to clean. Knowing your affinity for quality, look for one that has a quick release breech plug for cleaning.

    From there, it's on to the bench to test loads. The best load I found for my rifle is 100grs 777 pellets and a 250gr Barnes expander mz (hollow point, not tipped). When at the range, take your cleaning gear. Every other shot the barrel needs brushed out for ease of loading the next shot. Feel free to ask any other questions here or pm.

    Btw, used muzzys are easily bought. Lots of ppl buy em, hunt 1 time, freeze their azz off, put it in the safe, and decide to sell 2 years later. I have 2 and bought them both used but they literally looked nib. When looking at used, take a flashlight and pull the breech plug. That'll tell you all you need to know.
     
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    Mgderf

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    May 30, 2009
    17,877
    113
    Lafayette
    CVA Optima is a fine rifle that will meet your expectations.
    It's easily good to 150-200 yards if you do your part.
    CVA uses Begara barrels. Mine is stainless and if I use a clean burning powder like Shockeys Gold or IMR White Hots I can load 4-5 shots before I even need to run a brush down the bore.
    They also have a removable breech plug that takes no tools to remove.
    I only use a 100gr load behind a 245gr hollow-point Power-Belt bullet and it is basically a flat shot to 100 yards.

    I'm pretty sure you can still pick them up for sub $300
    You won't be disappointed.
    You still need to clean after EVERY shooting cycle.
     

    Leo

    Grandmaster
    Mar 3, 2011
    9,733
    113
    Lafayette, IN
    I know a lot of people who do not use lube when they are shooting Belted or sabot bullets. I use the TC or 1000 Wonderlube like you would use with round ball even on modern bullets. I cannot tell you exactly why, but as long as I do, I seldom have to clean the bore to keep shooting. I just use Pyrodex (granuals or pellets), nothing fancy.

    I have literally shot 50 round ball in a single afternoon, and 20 buffalo bullets without cleaning the bore until I got home.

    When I come home I clean the bore ASAP and recoat with the same lube as I use for shooting. Never use petroleum products, including anything marked gun oil. Use only bore butter marked for muzzle loaders. It will not turn the powder residue into that tar like fouling that is difficult to clean.

    Thompson/Center Natural Lube 1000 Plus Bore Butter : Cabela's

    http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_317&products_id=13871

    http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_99_317&products_id=3777



    I have never shot further that 150 yards, while there is bullet drop at that range, once you get used to it, it is reliable. Pop can hits at 100 from a hunting position are not too difficult. Never tried shooting a muzzle loader from a bench

    Barrel twist determines what it will shoot accurately. one twist in 60 inches works great with round ball, but a longer bullet will not stablize. Some of the 1 in 48 twist do pretty good with round ball and shorter belted bullets. The faster 26 to 30 twist barrels are accurate with longer bullets, but fail with roundball. You have to kind of figure what shoots best.
     
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    Newprt

    Plinker
    Nov 6, 2015
    20
    3
    Hartford City
    CVA Optima is a fine rifle that will meet your expectations.
    It's easily good to 150-200 yards if you do your part.
    CVA uses Begara barrels. Mine is stainless and if I use a clean burning powder like Shockeys Gold or IMR White Hots I can load 4-5 shots before I even need to run a brush down the bore.
    They also have a removable breech plug that takes no tools to remove.
    I only use a 100gr load behind a 245gr hollow-point Power-Belt bullet and it is basically a flat shot to 100 yards.

    I'm pretty sure you can still pick them up for sub $300
    You won't be disappointed.
    You still need to clean after EVERY shooting cycle.

    I strongly agree. I shoot a cva optima and have killed out to 220 yards with it. Awesome shooting muzzle loader for the price
     

    17 squirrel

    Shooter
    May 15, 2013
    4,427
    63
    I know a lot of people who do not use lube when they are shooting Belted or sabot bullets. I use the TC or 1000 Wonderlube like you would use with round ball even on modern bullets. I cannot tell you exactly why, but as long as I do, I seldom have to clean the bore to keep shooting. I just use Pyrodex (granuals or pellets), nothing fancy.

    I have literally shot 50 round ball in a single afternoon, and 20 buffalo bullets without cleaning the bore until I got home.

    When I come home I clean the bore ASAP and recoat with the same lube as I use for shooting. Never use petroleum products, including anything marked gun oil. Use only bore butter marked for muzzle loaders. It will not turn the powder residue into that tar like fouling that is difficult to clean.


    Barrel twist determines what it will shoot accurately. one twist in 60 inches works great with round ball, but a longer bullet will not stablize. Some of the 1 in 48 twist do pretty good with round ball and shorter belted bullets. The faster 26 to 30 twist barrels are accurate with longer bullets, but fail with roundball. You have to kind of figure what shoots best.

    Best statement on this thread,
    Bore Butter or any kind of Black Powder Lube will keep the residue left after fireing soft, having soft or wet residue in the barrel is paramount in easy and accurate reloading of follow up shots.
    It's just like shooting black powder cartridge's, if you don't have the correct lube you will not be able to chamber the next round.
    If you are shooting a ML or BPCR more than one shot you should have excess lube on the crown ( face ) of the barrel. That way you know it's doing its job.
     

    AGarbers

    Expert
    Feb 4, 2009
    1,360
    48
    Martinsville
    You may want to check into the Savage muzzle loader. It uses certain modern powders and approaches center fire rifle velocities and accuracy. I don't have a way to share the website but one place had a write up shooting it accurately to 500 yards.
     

    Hookeye

    Grandmaster
    Dec 19, 2011
    15,039
    77
    armpit of the midwest
    I had a TC New Englander that would cloverleaf at 100 from the bench. Iron sighted.
    Of course the target was scaled such that the hold was repeatable.

    The gun was not however "stock". TC's were known to vertically string when new. So I lapped the bore and did a trigger job.
    One can forgo the bore lapping and just run about 100 roundballs through it, should be consistent at that point.

    I had a Renegade I got cheap due to my bud missing a cow elk with it. He bought it new, wasn't shot much. He had a peep on the tang.
    And that was the problem. Some drunk at TC put this one together........did not hook up right at tang, plus trigger guard and other screws were run.
    I literally had to glass bed the barrel (and epoxy and redrill other screw holes in the wood).

    My load in all MZ was 100gr FFg (couple Renegades, Hawken and the New Englander, plus a couple of Knights).
    It too would cloverleaf (the previously troubled Renegade).

    Shot my farthest deer ever with it. Jumped a doe close ans she ran out into the field. Picking a tree in the woddline behind her (was just up there and J hooked, so knew nobody around).......I picked a spot that lined up with the drop. Quartering away the bullet entered at frong edge on hip and exited left side of throat. Hornady swaged .495"......always had good luck with that bullet. She ran a ways and fell down.

    Not a big deer, rather small actually. But the shot was perfect. Offhand, 178 yards (barrel sights, no peep).

    My buds and I used to shoot from the parking lot at out local range when nobody around. The 100 yd bank then became 175.
    And with it being tall backstop of dirt, you learned where to aim to drop them in.

    Reworked gun, practiced shot.........had perfect aiming point to drop it in. Not that big a deal really........when the details given.

    With older eyes and more sense, I wouldn't take such a shot today. Not with that gear.
    A modern rig, scoped, with a 150 gr charge?

    You betcha!
     

    Hookeye

    Grandmaster
    Dec 19, 2011
    15,039
    77
    armpit of the midwest
    My last BP rig was my Hawken Silver Elite.
    It had the QLA (hate that friggin thing).
    It would throw fliers off and on, never knew when.
    Groups size wasn't super either when it did behave.

    My best and super accurate TC's............did not have QLA. Coincidence?

    Not a fan of BP subs, esp American Pioneer. Great clean up.............sucks in consistency. Dunno if they ever got that straightened out.

    I did get my TC HSE to behave when switching to musket cap and T7. That and TC Maxi Hunters. I wouldn't shoot past 100 in case it started to act up (still should keep them in the kill).

    Most temperamental and face busting MZ I ever had.
    Dang it was pretty.

    Did have a couple of the cheaper Knights and scoped 'em, they shot great.
    Buddy picked up a like new Wolverine, stainless with camo stock..........$100.

    That with a 209 conversion would do all I need.

    But as soon as I scored one I'd probably start cussing..........although the removeable breech did make it nice to not have to shoot n clean after the hunt was over.

    Eh, I'm too grouchy to mess with MZ anymore.
     

    sportsman223

    Marksman
    Aug 7, 2010
    267
    28
    Passing on Doe's
    I have burnt lots of loose 777, loaded 50g with 200g bullet out of a .45 for the kids in summer all the way up to 150g in a .50 every one likes what it likes find the right bullet and powder combo and they will shoot. I would recommend an Encore/Omega with a 25ACP conversion and CCI 400 primmer I think the .45 shoots better than the .50.
    I have played with the savage and they are shooters also, but with the TC you can switch barrels more versatile
     

    AGarbers

    Expert
    Feb 4, 2009
    1,360
    48
    Martinsville
    Wow! After looking at the price that Savage ML-II has climbed too, I think I'll stick with my TC Omega. Something else to think of, if you plan on hunting elsewhere, some states have additional regulations. Some states require open sights during ML season. Other states require a minimum of .50 cal for elk hunting. So, I'm screwed on two counts. A. The first thing I did was remove the iron sights and sold them on eBay. B. My TC Omega is one of the short-lived .45 "magnum" versions, so if I ever go hunting in Colorado, I'm limited to mule deer.
     

    jamesb

    Plinker
    Jun 5, 2013
    138
    18
    Indianapolis
    I hunt a T/C Encore Endeavor, it is a 50X150 magnum, I use 45 cal sabot and blackhorn 209. It is very accurate at 100 yards. I put a scope on it this year to help extend my range. Clean up is real easy with the BH209, it does not need and special BP lube, I just use hoppes and treat it like a smokeless rifle. At the range I run a dry patch down the barrel every couple of shots to keep it as close to the first shot in the field. Before hunting it I fire a fouling shot, run a dry patch down it and prep it for the field.
     

    rsaylor8326

    Plinker
    Nov 26, 2015
    7
    1
    Lake Station
    It's like anything practice, practice and more practicing. I started out with a CVA Wolf package deal and my choice of scope. I went on and eventually bought a high dollar gun and would you know they both kill just fine. I use a .50 caliber magnum with 2 Pyrodex pellets and Power Belts gets me 150 to 200 yards just fine and shoots as clean as one could hope for. Some of the important points keep your powder dry and invest in some speed loaders there still slow but better then not having them. Best of luck at the grocery store.
     

    JMWetzel89

    Marksman
    Jun 8, 2013
    225
    18
    Maybe look at the Remington 700ml. I have one of the older ones and it is amazingly accurate. Not the easiest to maintain compared to some of the other offerings, but it's a platform your already very familiar with and might make taken on the new skill quicker and easier. Remington started producing the 700ml again they are a little steep with a msrp of about $999 I believe.

    I've successfully taken a doe at 170 yards with mine.
     

    NKBJ

    at the ark
    Apr 21, 2010
    6,240
    149
    Some options I've pursued:

    Lyman Great Plains Rifle with a .40 bore fast twist barrel. Same as shooting a 40-65 rifle.

    Uses lubed cast bullets swaged to mechanically fit the rifling or paper patched. This is the mold currently being used.



    TC New Englander with a .458 bore fast twist barrel. Same as shooting a 45-70 carbine. Uses off the shelf 45 rifle molds or pistol molds with paper patch. Lyman 457124 shot lubed and the RCBS 255 grain SWC shot paper patched are the favorites so far.




    Next is a TC Renegade with a .52 bore fast twist 38" long barrel to shoot off the shelf rifle molds with paper patch. Haven't shot it yet. Gonna get some bullets wrapped this winter. I expect it to perform the same as a 50-110. Gonna figure out a scope arrangement. Might go plum crazy and put a Leatherwood Malcolm on it but a long eye relief pistol scope would probably be more practical.
     
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