Q for my fellow surplus nerds

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  • A 7.62 Exodus

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    Sep 29, 2011
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    Shreveport, LA
    Evening guys and gals. I've got a question for my surplus people regarding M1 Carbines and 1917 Enfields. I'm hoping to pick up either/or this weekend at a local gun show, but I don't really know what to look for before buying one. I'm somewhat familiar with what current prices are for each rifle, but I have no idea what to look for when inspecting them. Any of y'all have input to help me from spending a load of cash on something that isn't worth it?
     

    Hop

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    I've been hunting for a 1917 myself. ~8-10 years ago they were available at the CMP store in Ohio and I'm kicking myself for not going up there with a buddy when he got his for ~$400. Prices have gone up drastically and are now in the ~$750-1400 range!

    Nearly everything I've put hands on has been a combination of parts. They were made by Winchester, Remington & Eddystone (I really like the flaming bomb). Eddystone made more than the other two combined.

    I can't think of anything to look for other than a clean bore, good firing pin and a smooth bolt/safety. I doubt you'll carry around a go/no-go gauge or throat & bore erosion gauge. Might be something you can buy online though. I borrow those gauges when I went to the CMP store & it erosion doesn't guarantee it's a good shooter.
     

    Jt22453

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    Nov 11, 2018
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    With carbines it depends on what you want. If you are looking for an early, correct example you will need to look out for fake parts and whether or not you want a cobbled together bunch of parts saying it is correct.Correct,as they left the factory,M1 Carbines are not easy to find and could take years of experience to find. Arsenal rebuilds should have a P arsenal proof mark the front or bottom of the pistol grip and possibly one over the other and generally have been fitted with at least a type 3 barrel band and flip safety and type 2 milled or type 3 adjustable rear sights.Look for cartouches on the right side,or crossed cannons, and sometimes manufacturer markings. Left side look for marks in the Slingwell to see if the stock matches the receiver. Also, could be 3 letter arsenal rebuild letters stamped into left side.Should usually be a P proof mark on the bottom of the barrel. Most barrels will have the manufacturer about an inch from the front sight and may or may not have a month and year date. Lots of different variations and things to look for. Good luck and I hope you find a good one .This website can be a good source of information as well. The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines
     
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    Jt22453

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    If you getting one to shoot, get one with a type 3 barrel band. It helps accuracy by keeping the barrel steadier than the other bands. Blue sky import stamps on the side of the barrel can be problematic as well. It’s large and some were stamped so hard they deformed or bent the barrel.
     

    rob63

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    Just like the posts above about carbines, nearly all of the M1917's went through a rebuild. They will normally be a mix of parts, and refinished by parkerizing. Original factory condition rifles are extremely rare and command a healthy premium. If it were me, I would try to find a rifle that at least still has the original WWI era barrel and a stock that still has sharp edges and good markings, indicating it hasn't been sanded since the rebuild. A bolt that is matching by manufacturer would be a plus, but not a deal killer. The receiver was the only part serial numbered. Winchester and Remington made rifles tend to sell for higher prices than Eddystone's. The Ordnance Department had a lot of problems with the early Winchester made rifles, but, ironically, they seem to be the most sought after by collectors.

    Here is an example of typical rebuild stock markings, along with photos of other typical markings:
    oJQb6MN.jpg

    LVa7hsn.jpg

    Brz59rA.jpg

    xJPnyrT.jpg

    wG8ZtiK.jpg

    4tRsCWD.jpg

    RsdoEvV.jpg
     

    Hop

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    Nice pics Rob! Is that one of yours?

    Correct me if I'm wrong...
    Funny how people call these P17 Eddystone and most aren't. It's a "US Model of 1917" & 30-06 caliber. I think the "P" or "pattern" rifles were the designator for the British 303 caliber version. I haven't seen a 303 caliber one for ages. The shortage of 1903 rifles forced the Bit guns to get a quick rechamber to 30-06 for US troops. These were the true WW work horses.
     

    Mongo59

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    Most were made by/in Eddystone, even more so when you factor in Eddystone is/was Remington.

    The Winnies were the least produced IIRC.

    What is more odd is that the 1903 was considered the "main" battle rifle. But among the allied forces in WW1, 60% were using the 1917 including Sgt York who called it his British rifle.
     

    rob63

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    Nice pics Rob! Is that one of yours?

    Correct me if I'm wrong...
    Funny how people call these P17 Eddystone and most aren't. It's a "US Model of 1917" & 30-06 caliber. I think the "P" or "pattern" rifles were the designator for the British 303 caliber version. I haven't seen a 303 caliber one for ages. The shortage of 1903 rifles forced the Bit guns to get a quick rechamber to 30-06 for US troops. These were the true WW work horses.

    Thanks, it used to be one of mine. I sold it a few years ago, and, naturally, I'm looking for another one now.

    You have it exactly right. The US was very fortunate that there were 3 factories just finishing up contracts with the Brits for a gun that could easily be converted to 30-06 and kept in production. I have seen estimates that, although the Model 1903 officially remained the standard service rifle, 75% of the US troops in Europe were actually armed with the Model 1917.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Nice pics Rob! Is that one of yours?

    Correct me if I'm wrong...
    Funny how people call these P17 Eddystone and most aren't. It's a "US Model of 1917" & 30-06 caliber. I think the "P" or "pattern" rifles were the designator for the British 303 caliber version. I haven't seen a 303 caliber one for ages. The shortage of 1903 rifles forced the Bit guns to get a quick rechamber to 30-06 for US troops. These were the true WW work horses.

    I thought it was the other way around. But I may be full of :poop:. Often am. :): I just seem to remember saying I had a P14 and being corrected that it was a "Pattern of 1914". But I'm old. Yeah, that's it... that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.
     

    rob63

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    I thought it was the other way around. But I may be full of :poop:. Often am. :): I just seem to remember saying I had a P14 and being corrected that it was a "Pattern of 1914". But I'm old. Yeah, that's it... that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

    I'm also often full of the same substance, so take this fwiw, I would consider P14 and Pattern of 14 to be interchangeable. Whoever corrected you on that was being pretty darn technical. I think Hop was referring to people that use the British Pattern designation when talking about the US Model, calling it a P17. There was a British Pattern of 1914 and a US Model of 1917, but no Pattern of 1917
     

    rob63

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    There has been some interest in the markings on these rifles... here is an example I found on the web of what the original WWI stock markings looked like. It is located on the bottom of the stock just behind the trigger guard and in front of it. It is an eagle head (upside down in the photo) with a number underneath. They are usually pretty faint on a rebuilt rifle.

    rem6-510x600.jpg


    Here is a link to the listing, the other photos show what the original bluing looked like.

    https://pre98.com/shop/gone-but-not...service-rifle-blued-straight-ww1-issue-sharp/
     
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    Hop

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    I'll let this out of the bag here...
    Revere's Riders is trying to plan an "Intro to Mil-Surp" rifle shoot the weekend of June 8th in Seelyville IN. It'll be the 75th anniversary of D-day.
    I'll be one of the co-event directors. We're planning on having about 30 various mil-surp rifles for y'all to try out ('murican, German, Swiss, Russian, Sweedish, Japan, British, Yugo, Austrian, etc...). Yes, you get to shoot them! Target(s) are probably going to be various sized steel at 150-200 yards.

    We're still working on the details including pricing and what all you get to do for x dollars.
    Some of the ammo is very expensive. Like ~$1.65 / round for Jap 7.7.
    I'm not real sure how we'll sell this yet so any suggestions are welcome. We're thinking a fairly low flat rate (includes the range fee) then an additional cost for ammo. 5 rounds for $10 sounds ok for stuff like the Jap but maybe too high for PPU 30-06 that most Garands like to eat.

    **We plan to get all these old war horses checked by our gunsmith prior to the event for safety reasons**
     

    Ark

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    I'm a shooter, not a collector. Number one thing I look for is a seller who can vouch for personally shooting the gun. Second is a good bore, other parts can potentially be replaced.
     

    Mongo59

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    The 1917's are good rifles. Because of the longer sight radius they were actually better shooters than the '03 but the soldiers liked the '03 because it is what most had trained with. The 1917 was an English design which means "cocks on closing" while the German designs were "cocks on opening". Since we stole the '03's design from the German Gew 88 (and had to pay royalties to Mauser) it would obviously have the "cocks when opening".

    The English were obsessed with their "mad minute" and found that when the rifles heat up in battle you will be more likely to clear the chamber of the spent shell if you were not also fighting the resistance of the cocking mechanism at the same time. You can still see this influence on American made bolt action rifles to this day. Check some of you bolt actions out for German or English influence.

    When WW1 broke out it caught the Brits with their pants down trying to change to a new rimless round. Need for rifles and some problems with the new ammo sent them to the USA looking to get them back into the game. The P14, for Pattern 14, was what they contracted to have produced in the tried and true .303 Brit. Why not call it an Enfield you ask? Enfield was the name of their armory like Springfield was the name for ours. The same way we wouldn't call ours a Remington/Springfield or a Springfield/Winchester they weren't going to dilute their patriotic pride by associating their proud name with something from over the pond. In the same way we weren't going to follow their lead buy calling our version "pattern".

    Remington struck a contract with the gov to produce the 1917 for a monstrous sum of $10.00 per unit. They bought the old Baldwin Locomotive works in Eddystone, Pa, tore it down and built a new Eddystone gun works.

    Meanwhile, at the Springfield and Rock Island Arsenals they were having a problem with brittle bolts and receivers. The gov wanted this fixed, and now. So they took a two prong approach to a remedy, 1) Find out why it is happening and fix it. 2) Explore the possibility of procuring a proven proprietorial formula for steel in case there is a delay to approach #1.
    Enter Winchester Repeating Arms Company. They agreed to also make 1917's for the gov but they would also make available their "high nickle steel" formula at a price. Part of that price was they were to receive $10.25 per 1917 produced.
    When the leadership at Remington re-entered the earth's gravitational pull, hardly a civil word was uttered until the gov gave them the R&D rights to a top secret advancement later to be known as the "Pederson device" to be used with the new Springfield 1903 Mark 1.

    The 1917 went on to be issued to 75% of the American Expeditionary Force and, when averaged in with the P14 in England's arsenal, the design would make up a guesstimate of 60% of the rifles used by the allied forces.

    Oh, and the fix to the '03 brittle receivers? Besides low standards for the casings for the relatively new .30 '06 they found the most unusual production anomaly. Forging steel was an art in those days. The artist did not use pyrometers, but could know the temp by the glow of the molten metal. Quite accurately, except on bright sunny days that flooded the forge building with natural light. On those days they tended to under estimate the temp and over heat the metal thereby cooking out enough carbon to render the batch brittle. They later installed pyrometers to remedy the receivers and started using Winchester proprietary high nickle steel for the bolt bodies.

    Pederson went on to develop the "Pederson device" which could replace the bolt to the new Springfield Mark 1 turning it into a .30 cal, pistol round charged, 30 round mag, semi-automatic rifle. It was going to break the deadlock of trench warfare in the spring of 1919. Fortunately the war ended on Nov 11, 1918 at 11:00. The Pederson device was never used and they were effectively destroyed with only a few remaining examples. The Mark 1's were used interchangeably with the other '03's going on to serve the USMC in WW2. Only 100,000 of the Mark 1's were made.

    I say the USMC and not the army due to the bulk of the army issued bolt action rifles in WW2 were the new Remington '03a3 used to supplement their pride and joy, the M1 Garand semi-auto. The '03a3 was a redesigned version of the '03 to make it cheaper to make (stamped plates instead of milled) and also increased the sight radius to the equivalent of the 1917.

    The '03's used in the USMC can be identified by the "Hatcher hole" drilled in the left side of the receiver as a vent should a casing rupture.

    I give this to show the flow of events and the order of implementation. It is off the top of my head and as it is now 2:40am I may have had some long term recall issues. I hope it will give everyone a chance to have an "Ahhh" moment. Thanks
     
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