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  1. #11
    Plinker lawyers guns and money's Avatar

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    Yes got an e-mail from S+W. I thought they had fixed this awhile back.. I ordered the chamber gauge just to make sure. Thanks

  2. #12
    Plinker

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    Quote Originally Posted by nipprdog View Post
    It was Appleseed. No offense to Appleseed.
    Was it because it actually happened to them on the range or they knew of one? Just curious about the odds.
    Also thanks to the OP, ordered my gauge.

  3. #13
    Plinker

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    This comes from a post from an Appleseed state coordinator that appeared on the Project Appleseed forum:

    I got a question about the M&P 15-22 still being banned at Appleseed. The timing was fortuitous as I’d just been digging deeper on it and found some additional info on why that probably won’t change.

    While other .22’s have had their share of random issues the M&P 15-22 has had a lot of verified serious safety issues that convinced the Appleseed Oversight Committee (AOC) to take the action they did to ban it.

    Here’s a quick rundown of the problems…
    1- Out of battery discharges. Lots of .22 rifles can fire out of battery if circumstances are just right but the M&P 15-22 has an excessively large number of occasions of this happening at Appleseeds. That large number of occurrences suggests an issue that goes beyond the usual problems of a blowback .22LR action’s vulnerabilities.

    In one incident a participant was injured when the M&P 15-22 beside her fired out of battery and fragments of the case penetrated deeply enough into her arm to require minor surgery to remove it.
    (Safety concerns are one reason I’m a fan of rotating firing lines vs. packing the lines with people inches from each other.)

    Here’s a YouTube video where a person shows it will fire when the bolt is a dime’s thickness out of battery. Most .22 designs prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin when the bolt moves back that far.
    https://youtu.be/gRi_J0BP35w

    Here are a number of other videos Appleseed has compiled of occasions that made their way to YouTube about M&P 15-22s firing out of battery.
    https://youtu.be/rVfNN4dzx6k
    https://youtu.be/szAz5RVNXPw
    https://youtu.be/KwM6AxFthcY

    2- Firing with the safety on safe. A number of cases of the rifle firing with the safety on in unmodified rifles (all factory OEM parts) suggests a lot of out of spec parts or improper fire control group hole spacing.
    https://youtu.be/QvTFlNPEPso

    3- Hammer and trigger pins walking out. The AR-15 trigger and hammer pins are designed to be retained by a J spring in the middle of the hammer (hammer pin) and the legs of the hammer spring (trigger pin). The springs engage grooves machined in the pins so that both pins are trapped by spring tension.

    There have been multiple reports of runaway M&P 15-22s where they fire full auto without the finger touching the trigger. The cause has been traced back to hammer or trigger pins walking out of their holes in the receiver. That allows the hammer or trigger to tip and move freely without the trigger or disconnector stopping it.

    This would suggest that the M&P 15-22 pins and springs are not engaging properly creating an extremely unsafe condition. You can imagine the fun of a rifle emptying it’s 30 round magazine when you chamber a round in whatever direction the barrel happens to be pointing at that moment.
    https://youtu.be/iJ50bNgFntg

    As you know anecdotal stories is not the same thing as data but enough individual events begin to tell a story of a serious problem with the M&P 15-22. After reading all these stories and watching the videos I'm convinced Appleseed did the right thing.

    Based on S&W’s ducking of the issue the ban is expected to remain in place. As long as their attitude is “Problem? What problem?” no progress can be made. If that changes Appleseed will let us know.

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