AR vs Steel ammo

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • vuman23

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 25, 2011
    19
    1
    Cumberland
    With companies like Tula now coating in polymer rather than lacquer is anyone still having issues of rounds getting stuck in chamber of AR platform? i want to make a build that can shoot cheap steel ammo.
     

    Abominator

    Plinker
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Jun 22, 2019
    81
    8
    Auburn
    I would like to know this as well. I read something, maybe on lucky gunner about it wearing your barrel out faster but it's cheaper in the long run from all the $ you'll save on ammo.
     

    duffman0286

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    14   0   0
    Feb 3, 2011
    1,642
    38
    Wayne Co
    ugh i got a case of that older stuff today range outing every other round was a stuck chamber. Something wrong with the gun nope.... wolf and green tip ran flawless. Sure looking forward to the day im out of it
     

    VERT

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    23   0   0
    Jan 4, 2009
    9,801
    113
    Seymour
    I have not had problems with Tula steel case. But I just buy brass. Plan to start reloading it in the near future.
     

    Hop

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    16   0   0
    Jan 21, 2008
    5,084
    83
    Indy
    Steel ammo is cheap not just because it's steel, it also uses cheap powder & bullets. The pressure curves are different. It burns with a big pressure spike then fades quickly. The bullet is sometimes a cheap bi-metalic type.

    It's proven to shoot as well as ~2 MOA out to 400 yards. We [Appleseed] did this at Camp Atterbury a long time ago. ~40 shooters. Ammo worker really well.

    Your chamber is the big question here. My Colt 223 Sporter shot it just fine. Most of my AR shoot it OK. I don't have any super tight match chamber guns.

    More recently, my M1A broke it's extractor at 80 rounds shooting steel Wolf ammo. Chamber was clean. Maybe the extractor was flawed from the factory. The GI spec extractor has been fine ever since.
     

    Wolfhound

    Hired Goon
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    45   0   0
    Apr 11, 2011
    3,966
    149
    Henry County
    I own several AR's and have noticed that steel case .223 is more likely to stick in match grade barrels. Probably due to tighter chambers. Just an observation. Some say it's the lacquer or polymer coating that causes it, others say it is that the steel cases don't seal well enough and allow power residue to build up in the chamber. Brass cases expand better and seal against the chamber much better.

    The barrel wear issue with steel case is that the bullet jacket is mostly steel and causes extra wear compared to copper jackets. To test this take a magnet to your steel case ammo bullets. The magnet will stick and it's likely not steel core.

    Just my 2 cents. YMMV

    Edit: Hop made some good points. I guess my post is building on what he said in his post.
     

    Bennettjh

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    5   0   0
    Jul 8, 2012
    10,435
    113
    Columbus
    I've always shied away from steel case. I've always heard about the expansion difference between steel and brass in the chamber. Plus, the ability to reload.
     

    rosejm

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Nov 28, 2013
    1,775
    129
    NWI
    The biggest complaint I have has nothing to do with the rifle/chamber.

    Brass cases are hot when they get caught against skin.
    Steel cases will give you blisters...
     

    vuman23

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 25, 2011
    19
    1
    Cumberland
    so for those of you who have used steel with no problem, what would be my main focus on a build. so far i am avoiding match grade barrels and im using BCM extractor upgrade which ive heard works well with steel. p.s im wanting a 10.5 inch maybe 7.62 build.
     
    Rating - 100%
    28   0   0
    Oct 3, 2008
    4,187
    149
    On a hill in Perry C
    Another part of the problem is that the body of 223 and 308 cases have very little taper whereas the 5.45, 7.62x39, and 7.62x54r all have quite a bit of taper. Makes primary extraction a lot easier if there is any amount of sticking.
     

    worddoer

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    42   0   1
    Jul 25, 2011
    1,664
    99
    Wells County
    There are a lot of rumors floating around that are incorrect and truths that a lot of people don't know regarding russian ammo. Keep in mind that there are 2 parts that will affect your AR. The composition of the case and the composition of the bullet itself.

    https://www.theboxotruth.com/educati...mo-in-an-ar15/

    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

    https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=268

    Because a steel case does not flex like a brass case when under pressure, it does not create as good of a gas seal. This means that steel cases will allow a thin layer of carbon to build up on the chamber walls. If you continue shooting steel, this generally is not an issue. However, if you start shooting steel and then switch to brass, you WILL have a stuck case when the brass flexes during firing and "welds" itself into place on that carbon.

    When using steel cased, it is highly advisable that you clean your chamber before and after shooting to guarantee that the chamber is carbon free. I have observed that the guns that tend to run steel cased ammo better are the guns with the looser 5.56 chambers. Guns with tighter chambers tend to have problems running this ammo due to the carbon build up causing additional difficulty in extracting the steel cases.

    The bullet composition is a separate issue. Although most Russian ammo uses a bi-metal jacketed bullet, not all steel case ammo does. Hornady makes steel cased training ammo that uses a traditional copper jacketed bullet. The bi-metal jacketed bullets are often seen as less than ideal because the bi-metal jacket is slightly harder therefore causing somewhat accelerated wear on the barrel. I have seen a couple of tests on this over the last 15 years or so. It seems that if you keep your barrel cool while shooting, this is less of an issue. But if you heat your barrel up hot, the additional wear is accelerated. However, as stated in the thread above, by the time your barrel is worn out you have often saved enough money on the cheaper ammo to pay for a couple of new barrels.

    As long as your rifle can function reliably with the cheaper ammo and the lower accuracy is still acceptable for your purposes, go for it. In reality, it is more of a personal preference thing.

    [video=youtube;P5ZB3UfG960]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960[/video]

    [video=youtube;Qpo9rknFDkU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpo9rknFDkU&feature=youtu.be[/video]

    [video=youtube;napCSMHHe_w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=napCSMHHe_w&feature=youtu.be[/video]


     

    Vendetta

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    17   0   0
    Mar 9, 2013
    338
    18
    Lafayette
    These threads are always funny. Thousands of rounds of steel case through probably a dozen different ARs and AKs with exactly zero failures. I dont run "match grade" stuff. If it doesnt run steel case I dont want it.
     

    DadSmith

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
    22,200
    113
    Ripley County
    If it's accurate enough I will shoot the **** out of Russia steel case ammo. If I have to replace a barrel at 10,000 rds that's fine with me. $90 barrel vs saving close to $800 buying steel over brass case. I can buy at least 8 new barrels from the savings of Russia ammo.
    View attachment 79643
    62gr Wolf Military Classic HP
    100yds. 1.5" overall group
    If it wasn't for that flyer. .
    0.75" 4 shot group.
     

    DoggyDaddy

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    73   0   1
    Aug 18, 2011
    102,066
    77
    Southside Indy
    There are a lot of rumors floating around that are incorrect and truths that a lot of people don't know regarding russian ammo. Keep in mind that there are 2 parts that will affect your AR. The composition of the case and the composition of the bullet itself.

    https://www.theboxotruth.com/educati...mo-in-an-ar15/

    http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/

    https://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=268

    Because a steel case does not flex like a brass case when under pressure, it does not create as good of a gas seal. This means that steel cases will allow a thin layer of carbon to build up on the chamber walls. If you continue shooting steel, this generally is not an issue. However, if you start shooting steel and then switch to brass, you WILL have a stuck case when the brass flexes during firing and "welds" itself into place on that carbon.

    When using steel cased, it is highly advisable that you clean your chamber before and after shooting to guarantee that the chamber is carbon free. I have observed that the guns that tend to run steel cased ammo better are the guns with the looser 5.56 chambers. Guns with tighter chambers tend to have problems running this ammo due to the carbon build up causing additional difficulty in extracting the steel cases.

    The bullet composition is a separate issue. Although most Russian ammo uses a bi-metal jacketed bullet, not all steel case ammo does. Hornady makes steel cased training ammo that uses a traditional copper jacketed bullet. The bi-metal jacketed bullets are often seen as less than ideal because the bi-metal jacket is slightly harder therefore causing somewhat accelerated wear on the barrel. I have seen a couple of tests on this over the last 15 years or so. It seems that if you keep your barrel cool while shooting, this is less of an issue. But if you heat your barrel up hot, the additional wear is accelerated. However, as stated in the thread above, by the time your barrel is worn out you have often saved enough money on the cheaper ammo to pay for a couple of new barrels.

    As long as your rifle can function reliably with the cheaper ammo and the lower accuracy is still acceptable for your purposes, go for it. In reality, it is more of a personal preference thing.

    [video=youtube;P5ZB3UfG960]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5ZB3UfG960[/video]

    [video=youtube;Qpo9rknFDkU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpo9rknFDkU&feature=youtu.be[/video]

    [video=youtube;napCSMHHe_w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=napCSMHHe_w&feature=youtu.be[/video]



    I'm a big fan of Golden Tiger 7.62x39 for my AK, VZ2008 and SKS. I've not tried their .223 but I have plenty of brass cased (including Wolf Gold, which is good bargain plinking ammo and is still reloadable).
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
    77
    Arcadia
    With companies like Tula now coating in polymer rather than lacquer is anyone still having issues of rounds getting stuck in chamber of AR platform? i want to make a build that can shoot cheap steel ammo.


    Let it me get this right as so I can understand. You use inferior opposing interest countries cheap crap ammunition in who knows what as a a homebrew high power salvage parts rifle where the chamber that has to deal with + 50,000 psi 3 inches from your forehead and then complain about it not working right as you litter the ground with worthless rusting steel that sportsman and conservationist has to muddle through the residual crap. Just asking.
     

    DoggyDaddy

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    73   0   1
    Aug 18, 2011
    102,066
    77
    Southside Indy
    Let it me get this right as so I can understand. You use inferior opposing interest countries cheap crap ammunition in who knows what as a a homebrew high power salvage parts rifle where the chamber that has to deal with + 50,000 psi 3 inches from your forehead and then complain about it not working right as you litter the ground with worthless rusting steel that sportsman and conservationist has to muddle through the residual crap. Just asking.

    I didn't see the OP saying he doesn't police up his "brass" (steel). Making assumptions much? I also didn't see him complaining, or mentioning anything about "salvage parts". He was just asking a question. Just how high is that horse in your avatar anyhow? Guessing it must be about 40 hands.
     

    amafrank

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 18, 2012
    217
    18
    Hagerstown
    Lots of rumor, conjecture and myth involved with steel vs brass cases and also with the bimetal vs copper/gilding metal jackets on bullets.

    As someone noted the steel cases aren't as flexible as the brass so they don't expand quite as quickly but they snap back faster. At 55,000 psi they do seal quite well in a smooth walled chamber so the carbon buildup isn't a result of the leakage. It is quite possible that you will get a carbon ring where the neck of the case ends due to the powder but with the erosive effect of the 3000+deg F gasses running at 5000fps its unlikely. It is possible to get a carbon build up in the chamber but it is not very likely that brass will stick to it. Brass was used in older suppressors and in other applications specifically because it does not stick, gall, weld or otherwise attach itself to hot flaming surfaces coated with lubricants like carbon or graphite. The steel cases return to the original dimensions much faster than brass as pressure drops and carbon can condense from the cooling gas onto the surface of the chamber. I've not seen it in any of my firearms but I'm sure its possible....

    Steel jacketed bullets with a copper coating of some type is and has been frequently used to save on the expense of a copper or gilding metal jacket. It is very cost effective and it is much less of a problem than many think. The lucky gunner test was flawed quite badly and their take on the results even worse. Most wear in the barrel is caused by the flaming hot high velocity gas and debris run down the barrel. Friction and wear from the bullet are virtually non-existent. If you recover your fired bullets you will find that the copper plating or coating is still intact where the lands engraved it. The copper acts as a lubricant for the steel jacket just like your standard copper jacket. If the steel doesn't touch the barrel why would it cause more wear? The simple truth is that it doesn't.

    So for a synopsis of the situation, the steel cases don't cause wear to your chambers. Most of the coatings used on the steel cases aren't a problem either. The bimetal bullets also aren't a wear or other issue.

    What the lucky gunner and other test programs did not test is the powder and primers used in the ammo and they are most likely the real culprits. A hotter powder will cause more throat erosion and reduce the number of accurate rounds downrange over less time. Rapid firing exacerbates this problem and the luckygunner guys were burning up the barrels to keep from spending 3 weeks doing the test. Hotter powders dump more heat into the barrel quicker leading to more wear. Higher temps accelerate the wear so more heat is a bigger problem. The different burn rate of the powders used by wolf also affect the operation of the rifle.
    If the pressure at the gas port is higher it will cause more stuck cases. The higher pressure speeds up the bolt and has it trying to yank the case out of the chamber while the pressure in the barrel is still high. In a proper system using ammo with the correct pressure curve the case pushes the bolt back with the residual pressure in the chamber rather than the bolt yanking the case
    out. The extractor is there to remove unfired rounds and to provide a pivot for the ejector to work against when tossing the case out of the receiver. It is not there to pull the fired round out of the chamber when running. That is another common misconception.

    Primers are a big issue with a small amount of knowledge shared. Primers frequently contain things like ground glass to help promote ignition. The compounds used in the primer also vary from maker to maker. These compounds end up getting blasted down the bore and help out with the erosion situation by providing more abrasive for the process. They also run very high temps to insure ignition of the often hard to light powder and that adds to the wear. Primers cannot be left out of the equation when discussions of wear are going on.

    What would be a much better test is to take the wolf ammo and simply pull bullets and swap them for those with copper jackets to do a test. Then do the same again with the original bullets and the same powders used in the brass cased ammo. Swap out the wolf powder to the brass case ammo and do that test too. Do the testing in a manner more similar to the way real shooters shoot.....or maybe not because when I see AR and AK guys at the range they always seem to be trying to dump mags as quick as possible. Either way a more realistic test of each component would show that the powders make a much bigger difference than the case and bullet materials. Swapping primers would add to the knowledge as well.

    So remember that just because a chicken is a bird doesn't mean its going to eat your cat. There is almost always more to the story than what the article writers tell you. Doing all the proper testing would be very expensive and would not promote ones bread and butter. What ammo maker is going to shell out the cash or product to someone only to have their product shown to be less then what they claim. Its much like politics out there in marketing land. Lucky gunner wins by showing that their more expensive product is better for your rifle but that you can afford to buy a spare barrel if you use the cheaper ammo.....win win for them because you'll buy everything they sell.


    Oh and by the way, I've run many many thousands of rounds of steel cased ammo in AR's both full and semi auto, fluted chamber firearms like the HK and Cetme rifles, beltfed MG's, pistols, subguns and cannons. I've not seen any real difference in wear, chamber sticking or operation based on the bullet or jacket material.

    Frank
     
    Last edited:

    Wolfhound

    Hired Goon
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    45   0   0
    Apr 11, 2011
    3,966
    149
    Henry County
    Well, leave it to INGO to present some info that is new but plausible.

    Frank, do you have anything to back up what you're saying about powder and primers eroding barrels? Also, if steel case ammunition causes higher pressures shouldn't that result in higher bullet velocities? Steel case is usually lower velocity than high end brass ammo. Also, have you bought any steel case ammo lately? The Russians aren't even trying to fool anyone into thinking their bullets are copper jacketed/copper washed/spray painted by Ivan anymore. See the picture below.

    20190830-192625-5262.jpg


    I would very much like to hear AmmoManAaron's opinion on this subject.
     

    Trapper Jim

    Master
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Dec 18, 2012
    2,676
    77
    Arcadia
    I didn't see the OP saying he doesn't police up his "brass" (steel). Making assumptions much? I also didn't see him complaining, or mentioning anything about "salvage parts". He was just asking a question. Just how high is that horse in your avatar anyhow? Guessing it must be about 40 hands.

    I know and the older I get the horse sets higher. I guess I unload on the few that the many have ruined it for as far as I am concerned.
    I belong to over 15 conservation clubs and sportsman facilities here in the Midwest. Maybe the OP is pure as driven snow but I can show you a lot of steel crap on the ground and damage to our ranges with many of these. Also the nature of these questions reminds me of the three ruptured and fused Bolts I had to clear to safely get the shooter and his equipment off the range. Just trying to educate before someone gets hurt again or disrespects the range
    where I like to shoot.
     

    Site Supporter

    INGO Supporter

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    524,489
    Messages
    9,794,217
    Members
    53,638
    Latest member
    Dhlawson
    Top Bottom