Staying out of Trouble with AR Pistols

[Hohn]

I was reading recently the ATF letter of 2011 regarding the Thompson Center ruling on pistols made into rifles and back into pistols.

Here's the relevant text:


"Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C.5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a waythat theya) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels ofless than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, andbarrel of less than 16 inches in length); or(b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm..."

So-- if you have an AR pistol upper and want to make sure it can't legally be construed as an illegal SBR, just make sure you never have a "pistol" upper stored with a rifle lower alone. As long as there is a pistol lower ALSO with it, then then it DOES have a "useful purpose other than making a rifle"-- namely, making a pistol.

I'm thinking about building a pistol and thought this occurred to me. It probably already occurred to you, so apologies if I'm monologuing.

 

[Hookeye]

But you can make a pistol into a rifle legally with no paperwork.
So your rifle lower could have started as a pistol, two uppers (rifle and pistol) one receiver.
Best have the pistol buffer/parts to show it was once a pistol.

As cheap as lowers are, to avoid any legal questions, like you said.........just have a complete pistol lower around.

Years ago saw a guy testing his Encore pistol for deer season. 15" bbl, rifle scope, rifle stock. I said "nice SBR" and he was ??????
Said it was his deer pistol, he just slapped on the buttstock to work up/test handloads.

I said "you can't do that"

He said "sure, it's easy, just one bolt"

Pointed to the BIG RED LETTERING on his buttstock's box next to him.
Hell I think it even had it on the recoil pad.

Totally clueless.

Next time I saw him on the range it had a pistol grip on it. Nice guy. Old fella, long since gone.
But he bought the stuff new, had the packaging with warnings.........and it still failed to register.

Ive seen others that were totally clueless to the rules, figured if they could pop pins or change a bolt so easily, it must automatically be legal for anybody to do.

 

[Hookeye]

Of course when IN allowed PCR I used a Ruger .44 semi auto and had more than one idiot tell me the "law" was for single shots and lever guns.
Or that my .35 rem trimmed was illegal due to not being straight walled.

It got interesting those times

 

[Cameramonkey]

Yep. A pistol lower is cheap insurance. Much cheaper than a legal bill if heaven forbid you were found out with a pistol upper and just rifle lowers. I dont think you would get into trouble unless you actually created the SBR by swapping parts and leaving it that way. (and it was seen by Johnny Law)

And before you say "But what the man doesnt know wont hurt me.", think again. Folks have gotten into trouble with that attitude when unrelated issues arise that lead to unintended scrutiny. Like my neighbor across the street. I know he smokes weed. (And I dont care personally) He doesnt do it openly, but Ive smelled it on him while talking to him when we were both outside having a neighborly chat, as well as from my yard when the winds are right. Cops were swarming his house yesterday because his fiancee's grandma lived downstairs in the inlaws quarters. She wasnt the picture of health, and passed away unexpectedly. If this had happened a year ago before the "we dont care about small amounts of pot" decision, there is a good chance he (and possibly his VERY preggo fiancee) would have gone to jail.

 

[Hohn]

What is really an open question in my mind is this generation of braces that mount on carbine lowers with carbine receiver extensions. If I have two carbine lowers, one with a SBA3 and the other with a regular M4 stock, could a short upper be construed as making an SBR?

The modular nature of modern guns makes a mockery of these stupid regs, and forces the ATF to jump through hoops inventing new law to cover the gaping holes in the ancient ones.

 

[Cameramonkey]

What is really an open question in my mind is this generation of braces that mount on carbine lowers with carbine receiver extensions. If I have two carbine lowers, one with a SBA3 and the other with a regular M4 stock, could a short upper be construed as making an SBR?


The modular nature of modern guns makes a mockery of these stupid regs, and forces the ATF to jump through hoops inventing new law to cover the gaping holes in the ancient ones.

As long as the one with the brace was transferred as a pistol (or other) I dont think so. But get rid of your pistol lower and the chance goes up. As long as you dont assemble the parts as a SBR and have a complete pistol you are good.

Since you used the term "Carbine lower" for both I have to add one thing. I hope it was just misnaming it, because if that lower with a brace started as a rifle and you swapped out the original stock with a brace you are already in trouble because of the obnoxious "once a rifle always a rifle" ruling. You can only build pistols from stripped lowers or buy it as a pistol lower. If it started its life as a rifle it can only be changed to a SBR.

 

[indykid]

I have a Beretta Neos pistol and a carbine conversion kit. The carbine kit has a letter from ATF on how to convert from pistol to rifle and back without having them ruin your lawn with their black SUVs, smashing your windows and doors, and killing your dog. Basically if the carbine barrel is on, no problem but if you take the carbine barrel off, make sure you do not put the pistol barrel on with the carbine stock installed. Always remove the carbine stock from the rifle before removing the barrel. Install the pistol "frame" before installing the pistol barrel.

All this just to make sure you don't violate the new ATF constitution of the United States of America.

 

[fullmetaljesus]

But you can make a pistol into a rifle legally with no paperwork.
So your rifle lower could have started as a pistol, two uppers (rifle and pistol) one receiver.
Best have the pistol buffer/parts to show it was once a pistol.

As cheap as lowers are, to avoid any legal questions, like you said.........just have a complete pistol lower around.

Years ago saw a guy testing his Encore pistol for deer season. 15" bbl, rifle scope, rifle stock. I said "nice SBR" and he was ??????
Said it was his deer pistol, he just slapped on the buttstock to work up/test handloads.

I said "you can't do that"

He said "sure, it's easy, just one bolt"

Pointed to the BIG RED LETTERING on his buttstock's box next to him.
Hell I think it even had it on the recoil pad.

Totally clueless.

Next time I saw him on the range it had a pistol grip on it. Nice guy. Old fella, long since gone.
But he bought the stuff new, had the packaging with warnings.........and it still failed to register.

Ive seen others that were totally clueless to the rules, figured if they could pop pins or change a bolt so easily, it must automatically be legal for anybody to do.

These rules are retarded

 

[1nderbeard]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'll never let a judge having a bad day put me in prison for getting too close to the grey area. I don't mess with pistol braces or anything close to it. In the event I want an SBR I'll pay the $200 get out of jail free card fee and do it right.

 

[MCgrease08]

These rules are retarded

Yes. Yes they are.

 

[bwframe]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'll never let a judge having a bad day put me in prison for getting too close to the grey area. I don't mess with pistol braces or anything close to it. In the event I want an SBR I'll pay the $200 get out of jail free card fee and do it right.

Will the next democrat president or congressional majority know where to come find your SBR's?

 

[Ggreen]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...I'll never let a judge having a bad day put me in prison for getting too close to the grey area. I don't mess with pistol braces or anything close to it. In the event I want an SBR I'll pay the $200 get out of jail free card fee and do it right.

Pistols are not a gray area. Braces are legal. SBR is great, braced pistols are also great. In fact I think it's much easier to get in trouble with an sbr due to the let me see your class 3 license ro's and friendly range fudds that get off on telling on people. Most of these subhuman freedom hating mouth breathers see a brace and move on, but show up with a 7.5 upper with a stock and they want to get into your business.

 

[KellyinAvon]

How much does it cost to run this bureaucracy?

 

[MarkC]

How much does it cost to run this bureaucracy?

"In fiscal year 2018, ATF had 5,101 employees, including 2,630 special agents and 842 industry operations investigators. Its 2018 enacted budget was $1.274 billion." - ATF Fact Sheet

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-staffing-and-budget

 

[1nderbeard]

Pistols are not a gray area. Braces are legal. SBR is great, braced pistols are also great. In fact I think it's much easier to get in trouble with an sbr due to the let me see your class 3 license ro's and friendly range fudds that get off on telling on people. Most of these subhuman freedom hating mouth breathers see a brace and move on, but show up with a 7.5 upper with a stock and they want to get into your business.

It was only recently the ATF issued guidance on the legality of using a pistol brace like a gun stock. Before that, it was highly illegal to shoulder a pistol brace. I remember seeing sun stores with red warning labels next to all their braces disclaiming they would not allow you to shoulder a braced "pistol" in the store. What happens if a judge challenges the ruling? Personally I'd rather not go in to the grey area.

 

[1nderbeard]

Will the next democrat president or congressional majority know where to come find your SBR's?

"Sorry officer, I lost all my supressors in the woods the last time I went hunting."

 

[Hohn]

As long as the one with the brace was transferred as a pistol (or other) I dont think so. But get rid of your pistol lower and the chance goes up. As long as you dont assemble the parts as a SBR and have a complete pistol you are good.

Since you used the term "Carbine lower" for both I have to add one thing. I hope it was just misnaming it, because if that lower with a brace started as a rifle and you swapped out the original stock with a brace you are already in trouble because of the obnoxious "once a rifle always a rifle" ruling. You can only build pistols from stripped lowers or buy it as a pistol lower. If it started its life as a rifle it can only be changed to a SBR.

When I say "carbine lower" I am referring to the receiver extension, not to the 4473 status.

None of my lowers are transferred as anything but "other."


Back when building a braced AR pistol required a special pistol RE, it was different. Now that you can build a braced pistol from a carbine RE, it's more complicated.

 

[IronsKeeper]

It was only recently the ATF issued guidance on the legality of using a pistol brace like a gun stock. Before that, it was highly illegal to shoulder a pistol brace. I remember seeing sun stores with red warning labels next to all their braces disclaiming they would not allow you to shoulder a braced "pistol" in the store. What happens if a judge challenges the ruling? Personally I'd rather not go in to the grey area.

Actually it was originally not an issue, spent a short time being an issue, and is now back to not being an issue if you happen to shoulder a brace.

It was not forever and always improper to shoulder a brace. That actually lasted a relatively short time.


Importantly, all of my braces and AR pistols were built with the intention of being pistols and used with arm braces. Occasionally I do utilize them in other completely legal ways, but the intention is true to what it should be.

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[omegahunter]

As long as the one with the brace was transferred as a pistol (or other) I dont think so. But get rid of your pistol lower and the chance goes up. As long as you dont assemble the parts as a SBR and have a complete pistol you are good.

Since you used the term "Carbine lower" for both I have to add one thing. I hope it was just misnaming it, because if that lower with a brace started as a rifle and you swapped out the original stock with a brace you are already in trouble because of the obnoxious "once a rifle always a rifle" ruling. You can only build pistols from stripped lowers or buy it as a pistol lower. If it started its life as a rifle it can only be changed to a SBR.

How do you go about finding out what a frame was originally registered as?

I asked that ? of my ffl when I got a used Encore frame transferred through him to use was a dedicated pistol. I got the shoulder shrug from him.

 

[IronsKeeper]

How do you go about finding out what a frame was originally registered as?

I asked that ? of my ffl when I got a used Encore frame transferred through him to use was a dedicated pistol. I got the shoulder shrug from him.

Respectfully, buying a new frame is cheaper than paying a lawyer.

If I recall the Encore being a a pistol only, doesn't matter for you. But for AR lowers or even 700 receivers, etc.- cheaper to buy it yourself

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