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  1. #11
    Grandmaster sloughfoot's Avatar

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    Go to mil.com There have been several articles and studies done in the last few months talking about this very issue. The US military is very aware of the severe limitations of the short barreled M4 at any distance.

    There is also a report written by a Army Major that the Army needs to reclaim the riflemans 500 meter range with a rifle capable of effective fire at distance. I think I read on mil.com through the Appleseed website.

  2. #12
    Master

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    I'm not a ballistics expert so correct me if I'm wrong. I've always ben of the understanding that the 5.56 round was designed for close quarters. And, that NATO dictates it be an FMJ round. I have seen ballistics gelatine shot with 5.56 fmj and it's my understanding that it's very effective for CQB because the round start to tumble after penetrating a couple inches. Is this correct? I also understand the rounds size lack the weight to carry enough energy at longer ranges.

  3. #13
    Grandmaster

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    Back in '77, we had to "qualify" with the 5.56mm at 500 meters.

    It may not be the optimal round at that distance, but you'll never convince me it's ineffective at that range either!
    Dormant U.S.Marine/ NRA Benefactor-Life

  4. #14
    Grandmaster sloughfoot's Avatar

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    For the last few years, they have issued Black Hills 77 grain match ammo for use at the longer ranges. It really is not the caliber that is the major part of the problem, it is that they shortened the barrel from the original 20 inches to the M4 length.

    The Marines STILL qualify at 500 yards with the M16, but they are shooting the 20 inch barreled version. Heck, I and lots of highpower shooters, shoot the AR at 600 yards with 75 grain match hollow points out of a 20 inch barrel.

    Also the hollow point match ammo for .308 and 5.56 are legal since they are not expanding hollow points.

  5. #15
    Grandmaster sloughfoot's Avatar

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    Here is the link to the Army report for the Command and Staff College;

    The Captain's Journal Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer

    Of the many interesting facts in this long diatribe, is confirmation that the M16 was to be a replacement for the M1 CARBINE, not the battle rifle.
    Last edited by sloughfoot; 05-21-2010 at 21:09.

  6. #16
    Expert jontheturboguy's Avatar

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    If I were over there and in the "boonies" Id rather have an M14 in 308....
    INGO.... PAY TO PLAY

  7. #17
    Master thompal's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by sloughfoot View Post
    Here is the link to the Army report for the Command and Staff College;

    The Captain's Journal Taking Back the Infantry Half-Kilometer

    Of the many interesting facts in this long diatribe, is confirmation that the M16 was to be a replacement for the M1 CARBINE, not the battle rifle.
    Interesting. I'd not heard that.

    My dad was a Marine in WWII in the South Pacific. He HATED the M1 Carbine. He said it was a pathetic little cartridge which was ineffective at any distance, and that the weapon itself was best used as an extender for the bayonet. I got to hear all about it when I bought an M1 Carbine to add to my collection years ago.

  8. #18
    Shooter

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    maybe the army will trade me one for one m4s for mosins and mausers.

  9. #19
    Expert djl02's Avatar

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    I have a nice .308 i'll trade them for an M4 of my choice.

  10. #20
    Plinker Snayperskaya's Avatar

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    7.62x51 NATO is the way to go.(and NO it is NOT the same as .308. If you disagree, go put some .308 through a fluted chamber and then come talk to me.) M14 is a good choice, although, I am a big fan of both the HK G3(and all it's ridiculous variants) and the FN FAL. There are some good modern platforms to turn to as well, but the latter 3 mentioned are all battle proven.

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