IDPA - accuracy or speed ?

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  • amboy49

    Master
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    5   1   0
    Feb 1, 2013
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    central indiana
    I just shot my first IDPA match. I realize that speed and accuracy are both important. However, after reviewing the scores of all of the shooters - it seems that shooting fast with more down points is better than shooting slow with fewer down points. ( in general ).

    Is this a correct statement ? I'm not suggesting accuracy should be sacrified for speed. Just being fast and not hitting what you're supposed to be shooting at surely isn't a good thing. But, again, just looking at the scores it appears that speed takes priority. Especially since the down points are divided by two when calculating the score.

    Should I work on speed first to improve my score - which won't make me more accurate. Or should I work on becoming more accurate even if I'm a slower shooter ?
     

    mbaza3

    Sharpshooter
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    42   0   0
    Nov 21, 2009
    639
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    Arizona
    I started in IDPA last year and shot with some pretty experienced guys. They have told me to go for accuracy and the speed will eventually come. I think it was sound advice since my scores have improved over time.
     

    jakemartens

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    99   4   0
    Aug 30, 2008
    4,006
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    Indianapolis, IN
    I just shot my first IDPA match. I realize that speed and accuracy are both important. However, after reviewing the scores of all of the shooters - it seems that shooting fast with more down points is better than shooting slow with fewer down points. ( in general ).

    Is this a correct statement ? I'm not suggesting accuracy should be sacrified for speed. Just being fast and not hitting what you're supposed to be shooting at surely isn't a good thing. But, again, just looking at the scores it appears that speed takes priority. Especially since the down points are divided by two when calculating the score.

    Should I work on speed first to improve my score - which won't make me more accurate. Or should I work on becoming more accurate even if I'm a slower shooter ?

    No

    you first need to be accurate, speed will come

    remember it is everything else that you need to do fast, but the shooting, only shoot as fast as you can see your sights to shoot accurate.

    IDPA and USPSA are both based on time and accuracy to come up with a score

    if you are not shooting you are not scoring, so you have to do everything else, draw, reload, moving, getting into and out of position fast.
     

    amboy49

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    central indiana
    Jake, I saw your scores so I know you know of whence you speak. It is intimidating to observe the better/best shooters being able to "double tap" targets and shoot quickly and accurately. At this point I can't even get my trigger to work that fast. As with other gun sports ( or any competitive event ) i have always attempted to become more proficient. I am lucky enough to have a place close to home where I will be able to set up my own practice course. I also plan to get some professional help (coaching) to provide me with some basic skills I can build on. My first shoot provided a number of learning experiences. i.e. make sure the magazine is fully seated or the gun won't fire, don't load 12 in the magazine even if the magazine will accept that many rounds, don't shoot the targets out of order, don't shoot the targets with the "friendly" hands, . . . . and on . . . and on !
     

    Rob377

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    20   0   0
    Dec 30, 2008
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    Every point down is worth a .5 second. Do the math. If getting -0 instead of -1 takes longer than that, your score will be worse. If it takes less, your score will be better.

    One of the things IDPA has going for it, aside from snazzy fishing vests, is simple scoring calculation.

    Blanket statements that ignore the math with fuzzy, imprecise, and relative concepts like "faster more points down vs. slower less points down" is probably a counterproductive way to think about the game unless you attach numbers to it. 4 seconds clean is better than than 3 seconds (-3). 3 seconds (-3) is better than 5 seconds clean.

    Keep in mind, clock time isn't just measuring the shooting - it's measuring movement, reloads, transitions, etc. You can do all those things faster (and thus improve your score) without speeding up how fast you yank the trigger one bit.

    Work on being more accurate shooting and faster doing everything else, it'll take you pretty far in the practical shooting games.
     

    Dewidmt

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    24   0   0
    Mar 27, 2008
    705
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    South of the Muscatatuck
    Sounds like you might wanna know the rules of the game and know your weapon a bit better also. I'd worry about knowing enough to run the gun correctly (mag not inserted), before I ever worried about being Mr. Speed.
    Accuracy comes first, speed will come with time, practice and experience. Those guys you see speeding through the match, having few points down, and not shooting the targets with hands on em' all started at the bottom, just like you are.
    They also can most probably operate their weapon entirely by feel and know exactly where they threw a shot if they do put one off center.
    Little things like drawing, presentation, clearing a malfunction and running a clean reload all become muscle memory after you do them 4-5 thousand times!
     

    kevinsr98

    Sharpshooter
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    36   0   1
    Feb 12, 2011
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    I also plan to get some professional help (coaching) to provide me with some basic skills I can build on. !

    Check out Bright Firearms Training. Aron (Coach here on INGO) can help you advance your skills quickly and avoid the frustration of wasted time and ammo.

    Practice DOES NOT make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect. Good luck!
     

    midget

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    Apr 2, 2010
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    Leo
    My favorite phrase when starting out was "You can't miss fast enough".

    Hell, I still need to remember that from time to time :)
     

    sbcman

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    18   0   0
    Dec 29, 2010
    3,674
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    Southwest Indiana
    I just shot my first IDPA match. I realize that speed and accuracy are both important. However, after reviewing the scores of all of the shooters - it seems that shooting fast with more down points is better than shooting slow with fewer down points. ( in general ).

    Is this a correct statement ? I'm not suggesting accuracy should be sacrified for speed. Just being fast and not hitting what you're supposed to be shooting at surely isn't a good thing. But, again, just looking at the scores it appears that speed takes priority. Especially since the down points are divided by two when calculating the score.

    Should I work on speed first to improve my score - which won't make me more accurate. Or should I work on becoming more accurate even if I'm a slower shooter ?

    Good advice given so far. I'll offer mine for a little different perspective.

    In the same way that love covers a multitude of sins, so speed can cover a multitude of points down. I'm not proud of it, but I've won a few majors and my class at nationals having more points down than others. But, relying on speed will only take you so far. There comes a point that reaching the next level will mean shooting cleaner, probably at the same "speed" you already work a course.

    It's at this point that I think every shooter has to be considered individually. It's true that some guys run courses so fast that the wheels are out from under them before they start- they need to slow down. But there's other shooters that are controlled yet paced fast. I've seen them slow down and actually shoot worse! In other words, my advice is that for some shooters, it's more beneficial to work on getting accuracy at the speed they're shooting now. Don't know if that's your case or not, just throwing it out there.

    Then there's the issue of defining what level of accuracy you find acceptable. Me personally, although I want all -0 I find a paced -1 to be better than a slow -0. And that's where I think we all want to go. I'm sure if you checked the scores from your match you'll find that the guys at the very top were also the among the cleanest shooters there.

    OK, I'll wrap this novel up now. Welcome to the shooting sport of IDPA and the journey of improvement!
     

    Leo

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    Mar 3, 2011
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    Some of the answer depends on what is important to you. If it is just about scoring the game and manipulating the rule book, then play it from that angle.

    If you actually want to compete and at the same time develop skills that will make you skilled with your firearm, discipline yourself to make a hit with EVERY bullet and then build the speed from that.

    To me, a win due to some rule book manipulation is not worth having. On the street, when SHTF, there will be no rule book point, only last man standing. Since you can never be sure that you will be out numbered or have superior equipment, the only way you can stack your odds is with your skills.

    Remember IPSC? The "P" was for "practical". When was the last time you saw a practical pistol and carry rig on an IPSC course? You are not going to have a 40mm aim point, a half dozen 170 mm magazines and a gilmore speed rig holster all ready to play when a couple of thugs jump you in a parking lot.
     

    Rob377

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    Aimpoints, IPSC, and thinking that Open is the only division? Those are some dated references! You must be older than dirt! :laugh:
     

    BillD

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    Oct 28, 2008
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    Some of the answer depends on what is important to you. If it is just about scoring the game and manipulating the rule book, then play it from that angle.

    If you actually want to compete and at the same time develop skills that will make you skilled with your firearm, discipline yourself to make a hit with EVERY bullet and then build the speed from that.

    To me, a win due to some rule book manipulation is not worth having. On the street, when SHTF, there will be no rule book point, only last man standing. Since you can never be sure that you will be out numbered or have superior equipment, the only way you can stack your odds is with your skills.

    Remember IPSC? The "P" was for "practical". When was the last time you saw a practical pistol and carry rig on an IPSC course? You are not going to have a 40mm aim point, a half dozen 170 mm magazines and a gilmore speed rig holster all ready to play when a couple of thugs jump you in a parking lot.


    I've gone to hundreds of matches and have carried a gun for over 30 years. Never been close to a gunfight. If you spend you life practicing something that never happens, was it a wasted life?

    If the thugs jump, what you will have is

    1) a gun

    2) the knowledge and experience to use it proficiently.

    I'd rather have a C class USPSA shooter have my back than any number of tactical timmies who can't shoot.

    IDPA or USPSA, IMO, is not gunfight training. But if you work at it, it will improve your gunhandling and accuracy. And those are good things.
     

    rvb

    Grandmaster
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    Jan 14, 2009
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    It is most important to be accurate.... as quickly as possible.

    Yes, I've lost to people who were faster who gave up more points than me before (and I've been on the flip side of that coin). The truth is that in ALL instances my score would have improved had I done what was necessary to improve my points. Time is lost not on the trigger, but in moving between positions, setting up on difficult shots, and efficiency of motion.

    -rvb
     

    rvb

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    Jan 14, 2009
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    I started in IDPA last year and shot with some pretty experienced guys. They have told me to go for accuracy and the speed will eventually come. I think it was sound advice since my scores have improved over time.

    This simple statement gets repeated a lot. I think it's crap.

    Yes, as I said above accuracy is the priority, so when you are on the trigger do what's necessary to try for that A-zone hit, but it's not a bullseye league so break that shot as soon as it's "acceptable."

    When you aren't on the trigger, freakin' MOVE. Speed up those reloads. Haul ass, not saunter between positions.

    As I watch new shooters, it always seems either/or.... "I can shoot accurately [and run slow and reload slow]," or "I can shoot as fast as I can pull the trigger [and run and slide into position]".

    "Speed will come." always sounds like advise from those trying to hold you back.

    Shoot as accurately as you can. Haul ass. Even if you are slow on the trigger, you will only give up a few tenths per stage (conversely, wailing on the trigger w/ no sight picture or called shots will only gain you a few tenths per stage, but at the loss of 0.5s per point).

    -rvb
     

    rhino

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    Mar 18, 2008
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    In terms of the actual shooting, I think "speed vs. accuracy" is a false dichotomy. While there is a relationship, shooting more slowly does not guarantee better accuracy and shooting faster does not guarantee poor accuracy. As some of the other have mentioned, execute the fundamentals properly as quickly as you can for a given shot. Some techniques will help you do this and some will make it worse.
     

    rvb

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    4   0   0
    Jan 14, 2009
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    In terms of the actual shooting, I think "speed vs. accuracy" is a false dichotomy. While there is a relationship, shooting more slowly does not guarantee better accuracy and shooting faster does not guarantee poor accuracy. As some of the other have mentioned, execute the fundamentals properly as quickly as you can for a given shot. Some techniques will help you do this and some will make it worse.

    Over time, as a shooter improves and learns those helpful techniques, the speed at which a shooter is able to make hits will increase. And once they reach a certain level shooting speed wont necessarily degrade the acceptable accuracy. I agree with all that.

    But for the most part with new shooters, that shooting speed is not the gap they are seeing in the scores. It's reloads. It's moving between positions. It's "pie'ing the corner." It's searching for target locations. It's reacting to the buzzer. These things have nothing to do w/ marksmenship, but are probably 75%+ of the gap reflected in the scores. Yet when new shooters talk about scores, invariably it's this "should I shoot faster or be accurate." It's important we separate the skills.

    1) Take enough time when shooting to get acceptable hits.
    2) Reduce time spent NOT shooting.

    The shooting speed will eventually come... but right now, it's probably not the most important thing affecting your score.

    -rvb
     

    Bosshoss

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    Dec 11, 2009
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    MADISON
    Some of the answer depends on what is important to you. If it is just about scoring the game and manipulating the rule book, then play it from that angle.

    If you actually want to compete and at the same time develop skills that will make you skilled with your firearm, discipline yourself to make a hit with EVERY bullet and then build the speed from that.

    To me, a win due to some rule book manipulation is not worth having. On the street, when SHTF, there will be no rule book point, only last man standing. Since you can never be sure that you will be out numbered or have superior equipment, the only way you can stack your odds is with your skills.

    Remember IPSC? The "P" was for "practical". When was the last time you saw a practical pistol and carry rig on an IPSC course? You are not going to have a 40mm aim point, a half dozen 170 mm magazines and a gilmore speed rig holster all ready to play when a couple of thugs jump you in a parking lot.

    I've gone to hundreds of matches and have carried a gun for over 30 years. Never been close to a gunfight. If you spend you life practicing something that never happens, was it a wasted life?

    If the thugs jump, what you will have is

    1) a gun

    2) the knowledge and experience to use it proficiently.

    I'd rather have a C class USPSA shooter have my back than any number of tactical timmies who can't shoot.

    IDPA or USPSA, IMO, is not gunfight training. But if you work at it, it will improve your gunhandling and accuracy. And those are good things.

    Agree with Bill ALL of the shooting sports are GAMES, NOT training.
    But you can train all you want and nothing can train you for someone shooting back at you for real.
    However the games will help you deal with pressure and gunhandling.
    By the way many of the games top shooters are instructors for military and law inforcement so there must be some corralation between the two.
    It's a game and a fun one at that.:twocents:
     

    Leo

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    Aimpoints, IPSC, and thinking that Open is the only division? Those are some dated references! You must be older than dirt! :laugh:


    I am!


    I also agree with the posts about gun handling. That was my point. Admittedly, my action pistol observances are dated. I played Action pistol for a while in between Conventional 2700 Bullseye pistol and National Match Highpower. I even played the race gun game for a short time. Even then, I worked hard at only shooting as many rounds as was needed to fullfil the course requirement.

    I have seen Bill shoot at pistol matches, he is an artist, fast and accurate, I respect him.

    I HAVE been jumped and beaten in an armed robbery, as well as shot at in another experience. Of course that was in the City of Chicago where the Mayor and police chief say there is no reason to have a gun to defend yourself. Everyones opinion is shaped by temperament, values and lifes experiences.

    My prefered opinion is to never pull a trigger without expecting a bullet to hit the intended mark.
     
    Last edited:

    Bosshoss

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    I started in IDPA last year and shot with some pretty experienced guys. They have told me to go for accuracy and the speed will eventually come. I think it was sound advice since my scores have improved over time.

    This simple statement gets repeated a lot. I think it's crap.

    Yes, as I said above accuracy is the priority, so when you are on the trigger do what's necessary to try for that A-zone hit, but it's not a bullseye league so break that shot as soon as it's "acceptable."

    When you aren't on the trigger, freakin' MOVE. Speed up those reloads. Haul ass, not saunter between positions.

    As I watch new shooters, it always seems either/or.... "I can shoot accurately [and run slow and reload slow]," or "I can shoot as fast as I can pull the trigger [and run and slide into position]".

    "Speed will come." always sounds like advise from those trying to hold you back.

    Shoot as accurately as you can. Haul ass. Even if you are slow on the trigger, you will only give up a few tenths per stage (conversely, wailing on the trigger w/ no sight picture or called shots will only gain you a few tenths per stage, but at the loss of 0.5s per point).

    -rvb

    Interesting statement Ryan.
    I confess to using this advice a lot to new shooters.
    As a former match director at a USPSA club and a NRA instructor I also held new shooter and beginning competition classes for several years.
    I have seen it hundreds of times and I'm sure you have also. A new shooter shows up and squads up and watchs several experienced shooters run the first course of fire. He steps to the line and tries to do what he saw everyone else do and go as fast as the ones before them and fails having several misses. I always try to slow them down some so they can learn the basics. This advice only seems to work for a couple of stages and they speed up and crash again.
    It was tough to see a new shooter shoot fast and crash so hard and when the results came out they usually didn't come back.
    A new shooter needs to worry about SAFETY first and having fun second. If they stay with the sport they will go thru the usual learning curve of speed vs accuracy.
    Hell I still tell myself to slow down, as someone that shoots revolver only it is a constant battle to not try to run with the fast bottomfeeders on every stage. BUT if I tell a experianced shooter to slow down and get your hits the speed will come you may be right Ryan I may be trying to beat them:D.
    Ryan what do you tell the new shooters that you see struggling at a match?
     
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